Buried deep in one of my post is the following joust between me and a poster who goes by the name of "The Blog"...I thought it was worthy of its own post. Enjoy.
The Blog said...
Craig, I was just wondering What foundational history and claims is the church not being honest about?
Sunday, November 16, 2008 2:36:00 PM
Cr@ig said...
Well "the blogger"...I KNOW it is hard for a true believing active member of the church to believe that a former true believing active member of the church could come to a decision that the church is NOT what it claims to be and actually leave the church, resign or just walk away.
Surly there must have been some sin, surly my faith and belief could NOT have been as deep as yours, or maybe it was that I wasn't as committed to the church or I secretly held desires to sin…because it HAD to be something, right? SOMETHING OTHER than the simple reality that the church is NOT what it claims to be.
I was a sixth generation Mormon…have held church callings from the simplest to the most responsible…I was NOT supposed to be the person to leave the church. I am/was immersed in the Utah Mormon culture. I paid my full tithes, I attended the Temple multiple times a month, I read my scriptures daily, I held family home evenings regularly…I STILL want the church to be true.
It was during my research that I encountered information that was not consistent with what I had been taught throughout my life as a 4 year seminary graduate and college institute graduate as well as being a full and active participant in the church since my birth. This is what caused me to start the questioning of my beliefs…conflicting information to the official stories.
I admit that once the questioning began…once the crack in my testimony started, once I started to ask tough questions rather than placing them on the back burner of my mind, the wheels began to fall off. But can’t real truth stand up to questions and scrutiny?
I was not shallow enough to just leave….I fought to maintain my testimony…I DID have long and multiple visits with Bishops, Stake Presidents and YES even General Authorities. I spent time with official church apologist at F.A.R.M.S. as well…I have read volumes of church sponsored explanations for church anomalies…but in the end…not one person, no bishop, SP or GA could answer my questions….in the end the pieces of the puzzle would not fit together the church could not stand up to tough scrutiny nor could it's explanations of reality fit in with what I now know to be the "Real" reality. In the end my faith could not be sustained… “For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope."
The church is either what it claims to be or it is not…there is no middle ground…Joseph either saw God or he did not, the Book of Mormon is either a factual history of a band of Israelites that were the forefathers of the American Indians or it is not…Joseph either translated Abrahams writings from Egyptian Hieroglyphics into the Book of Abraham or he did not. Thomas Monson either talks with God or he does not. As I’ve said before the church may be the greatest thing ever invented by man, but if it was invented…it does not deserve our involvement…for then, it is nothing more than a damnable false hope.
Monday, November 24, 2008 9:24:00 AM
The Blog said...
That wasn't really an answer to my question. What exactly isn't the church being honest about?
Were you inadvertently saying that Joseph Smith didn't see God and Jesus Christ? Were you saying that The Book of Mormon isn't written by a band of Israelites that are descendants of the Indians? Are you saying President Monson doesn't speak with God?
I don't think it's wrong to ask questions and anyone can choose to believe whatever the want to. I do know however, when I think something is wrong I stop associating myself with it. Why waste your time trying to prove something is wrong to everyone else? Why not just drop it?
What I have found is that when people leave the church they just can't stand to leave it alone. Leave it alone. Let people believe what they want to believe.
The way I see it, living the life the church encourages; abstain from drugs, alcohol, premarital sex, immodesty... etc. promotes healthy lifestyle, eat healthy, exercise, pray, read uplifting material (bible, book of mormon, other edifying books) be happy...etc. is the healthiest way to live. Do all members of the church live this way? NO. Would any person in the world be happier if they lived this way? YES.
Even if The LDS church isn't the true church of God on Earth, why try to discourage people from living a life that brings them happiness?
Monday, November 24, 2008 11:04:00 AM
The Blog said... Oh, and I wasn't making any accusations in my first question at all. I was simply wondering.
Monday, November 24, 2008 11:06:00 AM
Cr@ig said... That wasn't really an answer to my question. What exactly isn't the church being honest about?
Well “The Blog” since you’ve asked so kindly, let me try to be more specific. There are so many lies taught as truth in Mormonism…but here are just a few of the lies propagated by the Mormon Church:
*****************************
01. The Mormon Lie
God the Father has a body of flesh and bone
01. The Truth
Joseph Smith taught that God the Father was a body of
spirit, not physical, years after the supposed first vision. Why would he do this if he had in fact seen God and left the grove knowing God had a physical body of flesh and bone? See Lectures on Faith once part of the Mormon D&C now removed because it conflicted with other Mormon claims.
**************************************
02. The Mormon Lie
Joseph was an industrious hard working young man
02. The Truth
Joseph was a glass-looking, literally defrauding people out of their money by claiming to be able to find treasure by placing a rock in his hat.
************************************
03. The Mormon Lie
Joseph had actual Golden Plates in his presence that he translated into the Book of Mormon (think of the famous Mormon picture) Ummm it’s a lie…didn’t happen at all like that.
03. The Truth
Joseph buried his head in a hat on his lap with his peep stone enclosed to dictate the Book of Mormon text to his scribe...there were NO Gold Plates anywhere insight.
******************************
04. The Mormon Lie
Joseph lived the Word of Wisdom after it was revealed to him.
04. The Truth
Joseph never lived the Word of Wisdom and more than likely had an alcohol addiction. He even drank the night he was killed in the gun fight.
******************************
05. The Mormon Lie
Joseph was a virtuous, loving and faithful husband to Emma the perfect example of husbandhood and participated reluctantly in polygamy only after having his life threatened by an angel from God
05. The Truth
Joseph lied to Emma, he was involved with polygamous marriages more than 10 years before ever informing Emma. His first affair was with his own house maid 16 year old Fanny Alger.
******************************
06. The Mormon Lie
There are volumes of archeological evidence to support the historicity of the Book of Mormon.
06. The Truth
There is NO archeological evidence to support the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Nothing, nadda.
******************************
07. The Mormon Lie
Native American’s and Polynesians are descendants of an Israelite named Lehi.
07. The Truth
Native Americans descended from North-West Asia; Polynesians descended from South East Asia... not from an Israelite forefather and certainly not from each other.
****************************
08. The Mormon Lie
The “Nauvoo Expositor” was nothing but lies and a public nuisance.
08. The Truth
The “Nauvoo Expositor” was destroyed for actually exposing the truth about Joseph Smith.
******************************
09. The Mormon Lie
Brigham Young only taught Adam-God as a simple theory not as a binding a doctrine.
09. The Truth
Brigham Young DID teach the Adam-God Theory as church doctrine…those that failed to comply were threatened with excommunication for apsotacy.
******************************
10. The Mormon Lie
Joseph was a prophet of God and was not involved with the Occult
10. The Truth
Joseph died with a Jupiter Talisman (an occult symbol) in his pocket while at Carthage
******************************
11. The Mormon Lie
The Book of Abraham is an inspired translation of the papyrus written by the hand of Abraham.
11. The Truth
The Book of Abraham is a fraud. The papyrus is a common Egyptian funeral text it has nothing what-so-ever to do with Abraham.
******************************
12. The Mormon Lie
The various “First Vision” accounts are harmonious and support each other.
12. The Truth
At least four different "First Vision" stories exist either written or narrated by Joseph Smith which are in complete odds with eachother.
******************************
13. The Mormon Lie
Joseph was a moral man.
13. The Truth
One of Joseph Smith's plural wives was a 14 year old girl named Helen Mar Kimball, daughter of Heber C. Kimball and Vilate Kimball.
******************************
14. The Mormon Lie
The Mountain Meadows Massacre was unfortunate incident perpetrated by Indians and men acting on their own.
14. The Truth
Mormons, acting either under local direction or Young's direction, murdered innocent men, woman and children at the Mountain Meadows in southern Utah.
******************************
15. The Mormon Lie
The Temple Endowment was a restoration of temple ordinances lost from Solomon’s Temple of old.
15. The Truth
Joseph Smith plagiarized Masonic Temple ceremonies from the 1700’s into the LDS endowment within weeks of receiving them.
******************************
16. The Mormon Lie
The fact that we haven’t yet found evidence of these animals does not mean that they did not exist.
16. The Truth
There were no horses, sheep cattle, elephants etc in pre-Columbian America despite BoM claims.
******************************
17. The Mormon Lie
God gave Joseph’s father Lehi’s dream to prepare him for the Book of Mormon.
17. The Truth
Joseph Smith, incorporated his father’s 1813 dream into the Book of Mormon and attributed it to Lehi
******************************
18. The Mormon Lie
Joseph prophesied of the coming of the Civil War years prior to it coming
18. The Truth
Joseph articulated current events that any informed person of the day could have lifted from local news papers
************************************
19. The Mormon Lie
Joseph’s scribe, William Clayton, got it wrong in claiming that Joseph had started the translation of the fraudulent Kinderhook plates.
19. The Truth
William Clayton was good enough as a scribe when he wrote down Smith’s “1820 First Vision” claim in 1838 why not when he also detailed Joseph’s so-called first vision?
******************************
And that is just a few of the many lies.
I’ll share more thoughts when I have the time…
Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:07:00 PM
The Blog said...
Cr@ig,
I have read through each and every one of your disputations and couldn't help but feel regret that you have placed so much weight on these points.
I have dedicated much of my life to the study of many philosophies, ideas, opinions as well as LDS doctrine coupled with anti-LDS beliefs.
I am easily able to refute each and every single one of your points. Since my time is limited, I thought it would be just as well to go over even the first one.
"01. The Mormon Lie
God the Father has a body of flesh and bone
01. The Truth
Joseph Smith taught that God the Father was a body of
spirit, not physical, years after the supposed first vision. Why would he do this if he had in fact seen God and left the grove knowing God had a physical body of flesh and bone? See Lectures on Faith once part of the Mormon D&C now removed because it conflicted with other Mormon claims."
I have read the entire Lectures on Faith and have it right here with me. Please give me a reference that says God does not have a body of flesh and bone. I am unable to locate any. Also, the Lectures on Faith was removed from the D&C not because they "conflicted with other Mormon claims" but they were "removed because they are not specific revelations to the Church and were never sustained as such" which the Doctrine and Covenants were. If they conflicted, wouldn't the Church not publish them, and even tell the Saints not to read them? I find on the contrary, "these lectures are of great value and should be studied... I consider them to be of extreme value in the study of the gospel of Jesus Christ."-President Joseph Fielding Smith
After I read your first point, it completely removed any credibility you had.
Your tone is the same as many anti-Mormons. In an effort to discredit the Church, you throw out mixed ideas that you think make a point, but in turn expose your weakness in not only study, but in sound reason.
My friend, I hope you can see through the thick cloud of your own pride and repent of your sins, that you can enjoy the light and happiness you once had, instead of trying to justify your actions in vain.
"When once that light which was in them is taken from them they become as much darkened as they were previously enlightened."
"And thus we can plainly discern, that after a people have been once enlightened by the Spirit of God, and have had great knowledge of things pertaining to righteousness, and then have fallen away into sin and transgression, they become more hardened, and thus their state becomes worse than though they had never known these things."-Alma 24:30
Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:50:00 AM
The Blog Said: I have read through each and every one of your disputations and couldn't help but feel regret that you have placed so much weight on these points.
Cr@ig’s Response: Oh please… save your emotions , I’ve only scratched the surface…as to my points holding weight…they speak for themselves…but hey, I have an open mind…so If I am wrong in any of my conclusions…I’d love to be shown the errors of my ways….can you say the same for yourself? Is Truth more important to you than family, culture, religion, tradition and public image? Would you really dare or care to know the truth? Because until you value truth more than these other things…you will not be in a position to accept Truth.
The Blog Said: I have dedicated much of my life to the study of many philosophies, ideas, opinions as well as LDS doctrine coupled with anti-LDS beliefs.
Cr@ig’s Response: Characterizing information that brings into question Mormon claims as “ANTI” is an emotional-think-stopping-question-quelling-tool often used by cults. The Mormon Church and its apologist like to place anything that brings into question their claims…as “ANTI”. A real truth seeker would not. Neither I nor my blog are ANTI-Mormon….I am PRO-TRUTH. I have a very open mind and will gladly correct any posted thought of mine that can be proven to be in error. Why doesn’t the Mormon Church do the same…if they do in fact treasure truth above all other virtues? But instead they prop up their claims even after they have been completely debunked and shown to be false claims.
The Blog Said: I am easily able to refute each and every single one of your points. {REALLY? Be my guest} Since my time is limited, I thought it would be just as well to go over even the first one.
{Ok Bring it on}
"01. The Mormon Lie
God the Father has a body of flesh and bone
01. The Truth
Joseph Smith taught that God the Father was a body of
spirit, not physical, years after the supposed first vision. Why would he do this if he had in fact seen God and left the grove knowing God had a physical body of flesh and bone? See Lectures on Faith once part of the Mormon D&C now removed because it conflicted with other Mormon claims."
I have read the entire Lectures on Faith and have it right here with me. Please give me a reference that says God does not have a body of flesh and bone. I am unable to locate any.
Cr@ig’s Response: Please give you a reference that says that God does not have a body of flesh and bone? This is a classic Mormon Straw man argument, prove a negative. Of course there is NO reference that states emphatically that God “DOES NOT” have a body of flesh and bone and you know it. Rather we have a onetime canonized scripture/ now uncanonized, emphatically stating that “…The Father being {is} a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fullness: {while} The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, {is} a personage of tabernacle, made, or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man, or, rather, man was formed after his likeness, and in his image.
How much clearer does it have to be for you “Blog”? Joseph Smith is Juxtaposing the spirit comprised personage of God the Father against the flesh and bone composed Jesus Christ. Had it been Smith’s intent to teach that God had a body of flesh and bone in 1834, when he taught the Lectures on Faith, he could have easily done so…After all, you believe he knew this concept when he emerged from the grove in 1820…but the truth is that his concept of God being like man (with flesh and bone) had not evolved to the point that it eventually did in 1843, when he declaired in D&C 130.
So here’s my challenge to you…”IF” as you seem to believe, this concept of God having a body of Flesh and Bone was a commonly taught doctrine before 1843….show me “Any” reference before 1843 where “Any” Mormon Authority taught that God had a body of Flesh and Bone. Take all the time you’d like…. But it’s not there, because prior to 1843…Mormon’s believed and taught that God the Father was a personage of SPIRIT.
Blog, having dedicated {so} much of your life to the study of many philosophies, ideas, opinions as well as LDS doctrine… I’m sure that you are well aware that during the Kirtland period of church history Joseph Smith taught a traditional trinity view of the Godhead. This is well documented and further supported by the original trinity concepts {now removed} from the first editions of the Book of Mormon.
Blog Stated: Also, the Lectures on Faith was removed from the D&C not because they "conflicted with other Mormon claims" but they were "removed because they are not specific revelations to the Church and were never sustained as such" which the Doctrine and Covenants were.
Cr@ig’s Response: Hummm…The Mormon D&C is FULL of Non revelations…in fact you probably are unaware that one of the most quoted and beloved so-called Mormon canonized scriptures was NOT a revelation at all, but a mere personal letter Smith wrote to his wife Emma while incarcerated in Liberty Jail. The love letter parts were edited out and the well written "scripture quality" prose (something Smith was very good at) was added to the D&C as section 121 in 1880. It was NOT a revelation at all…but a well written love letter from a husband under duress to one of his many wives.
So the Fact that the Lectures on Faith were not so-called revelations is Not the reason they were removed…it was because by 1921when they were removed, the concept of God being a personage of "Spirit" had evolved within Mormonism and it conflicted with the then taught view of the godhead being taught by the church in 1921 when it was removed…otherwise all sections that were included in the D&C that were not-so-called-revelations would have been removed as well. But they were not.
Blog States: After I read your first point, it completely removed any credibility you had.
Cr@ig’s Response: Seriously…you need to redefine your definition of “Credibility” I find myself quite credible…since your premise and claims to my stated Mormon Lie on the godhead…has withstood your sad apologetic attempt.
Blog States: Your tone is the same as many anti-Mormons. In an effort to discredit the Church, you throw out mixed ideas that you think make a point, but in turn expose your weakness in not only study, but in sound reason.
Cr@ig’s Response: Blog your use of Mormon think stopping emotional triggers such as “Anti-Mormon” will NOT be tolerated on MY blog. As for discrediting the so-called church with my mixed ideas, weak study and lack of sound reason…I await your reply to my above mentioned Challenge. We'll see just how weak it really is. Good luck! Next time bring your best game...you're not messing with a neophyte.
Blog States: My friend,{we’re NOT friends…but I’m certainly open to meeting with you over a cup ‘O coffee someday} I hope you can see through the thick cloud of your own pride and repent of your sins, that you can enjoy the light and happiness you once had, instead of trying to justify your actions in vain.
Cr@ig’s Response: Get off your sanctimonious ramiumptum “Blog” and open your own eyes to the reality of the false claims of Mormonism… If you really do cherish truth…you will scrutinize and really examine all of Mormonisms truth claims rather than blindly accepting them because they come from your so-called prophetic leaders or some other emotional faith promoting feeling you might have experienced…for as Thomas Edison so wisely stated “…For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope."
And Mormonism is built on a foundation of myths, historical distortions and down-right lies...it cannot be what it claims to be.
Wednesday, November 26, 2008 11:47:00 AM
Wednesday, November 26, 2008
Monday, November 24, 2008
The Consequences of Supporting California's Prop 8
The Mormon Church has no one to blame but its own so-called inspired leaders.
With its support of California’s Proposition 8, the Mormon Church has thrown the largest rock into the tumultuous waters of Same Sex marriage … and appropriately is now reaping the tsunami ripples spinning off from this so-called inspired decision. How could God NOT have seen this coming?
Just like the recent Wall Street Market crash… the crash of the “Mormon Brand”, despite years and years of being propped up by its massive public relations effort, has been laid to waist. A vast majority of surveyed Americans have a negitive view of the Mormon Church.
The TSCC wanted to play with the big boys and is now reaping its reward. Evidently it learned NOTHING from the lessons of its own history. People do not like to be carpet bagged by out of state interests or have a minority impose its own personal interests on the majority. How soon TSCC forgets the political lessons of Kirtland, Missouri and Nauvoo.
I don’t claim to be a prophet in any sense of the word, but I can see where all of this is going…why couldn’t God’s so called anointed leaders?
Here are a few of my predictions:
• Unfortunately, the price of the decision will be paid by TSCC’s members through increased public alienation and marginalization. Its leadership will remain couched away in their Phallic Symbol, the COB.
• I foresee an increase in personal harm and attacks to the public face of Mormonism…its missionary force.
• Mormon conversion rates in California will nose-dive.
• All Mormon public buildings, such as churches and temples, will become targets of vandalism and public protests on a regular basis.
• Publically announced visits of Mormon GA’s to California will virtually disappear.
• Individual Mormon members in California will pay the heaviest price being subjected to individual acts of vandalism personally directed at their personal property…such as gratify to their homes and businesses.
• The children of the Mormon faithful in California will be subjected to public ridicule and taunts of bigotry while attending their public schools. Some may even have to be pulled from public schools. Declaring one’s self Mormon, will become even more embarrassing and painful.
• There will be an increase in membership resignations from California members.
• California wards, already divided over this issue, will see a decrease in membership attendance and tithing payments, creating its own ripple effect.
• Evangelical coalition members, who joined the Mormon Church in defense of Marriage, will abandon the Mormon Church (whom they view as a cult) and hang them out to dry.
• Mormon GA’s WILL be subjected to a “Cream Pie in the Face Incident”
• Either a Pro-Gay Marriage Prop will eventually pass or the California Supreme court will over turn Prop 8, but next time the Mormon Church will take a less active roll…having paid such a heavy price to its so coveted public image, tithing payments and membership numbers.
• Same Sex Marriage will eventually become Law in some form in California at some time in the future and all of the Mormon’s Churches efforts will have been for naught. If I can see this coming...why couldn't God's so-called anointed?
Isn’t it Wonderful…Isn’t it Marvelous…
I should note that I do not personally advocate vandalism, violence or bodily hard to anything or any person associated with the Mormon Church…I am merely stating the obvious consequences of the Mormon Church’s decision to interject itself into California’s Political arena.
With its support of California’s Proposition 8, the Mormon Church has thrown the largest rock into the tumultuous waters of Same Sex marriage … and appropriately is now reaping the tsunami ripples spinning off from this so-called inspired decision. How could God NOT have seen this coming?
Just like the recent Wall Street Market crash… the crash of the “Mormon Brand”, despite years and years of being propped up by its massive public relations effort, has been laid to waist. A vast majority of surveyed Americans have a negitive view of the Mormon Church.
The TSCC wanted to play with the big boys and is now reaping its reward. Evidently it learned NOTHING from the lessons of its own history. People do not like to be carpet bagged by out of state interests or have a minority impose its own personal interests on the majority. How soon TSCC forgets the political lessons of Kirtland, Missouri and Nauvoo.
I don’t claim to be a prophet in any sense of the word, but I can see where all of this is going…why couldn’t God’s so called anointed leaders?
Here are a few of my predictions:
• Unfortunately, the price of the decision will be paid by TSCC’s members through increased public alienation and marginalization. Its leadership will remain couched away in their Phallic Symbol, the COB.
• I foresee an increase in personal harm and attacks to the public face of Mormonism…its missionary force.
• Mormon conversion rates in California will nose-dive.
• All Mormon public buildings, such as churches and temples, will become targets of vandalism and public protests on a regular basis.
• Publically announced visits of Mormon GA’s to California will virtually disappear.
• Individual Mormon members in California will pay the heaviest price being subjected to individual acts of vandalism personally directed at their personal property…such as gratify to their homes and businesses.
• The children of the Mormon faithful in California will be subjected to public ridicule and taunts of bigotry while attending their public schools. Some may even have to be pulled from public schools. Declaring one’s self Mormon, will become even more embarrassing and painful.
• There will be an increase in membership resignations from California members.
• California wards, already divided over this issue, will see a decrease in membership attendance and tithing payments, creating its own ripple effect.
• Evangelical coalition members, who joined the Mormon Church in defense of Marriage, will abandon the Mormon Church (whom they view as a cult) and hang them out to dry.
• Mormon GA’s WILL be subjected to a “Cream Pie in the Face Incident”
• Either a Pro-Gay Marriage Prop will eventually pass or the California Supreme court will over turn Prop 8, but next time the Mormon Church will take a less active roll…having paid such a heavy price to its so coveted public image, tithing payments and membership numbers.
• Same Sex Marriage will eventually become Law in some form in California at some time in the future and all of the Mormon’s Churches efforts will have been for naught. If I can see this coming...why couldn't God's so-called anointed?
Isn’t it Wonderful…Isn’t it Marvelous…
I should note that I do not personally advocate vandalism, violence or bodily hard to anything or any person associated with the Mormon Church…I am merely stating the obvious consequences of the Mormon Church’s decision to interject itself into California’s Political arena.
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