Wednesday, November 26, 2008

A Conversation with a Mormon Apologist

Buried deep in one of my post is the following joust between me and a poster who goes by the name of "The Blog"...I thought it was worthy of its own post. Enjoy.

The Blog said...
Craig, I was just wondering What foundational history and claims is the church not being honest about?
Sunday, November 16, 2008 2:36:00 PM


Cr@ig said...
Well "the blogger"...I KNOW it is hard for a true believing active member of the church to believe that a former true believing active member of the church could come to a decision that the church is NOT what it claims to be and actually leave the church, resign or just walk away.

Surly there must have been some sin, surly my faith and belief could NOT have been as deep as yours, or maybe it was that I wasn't as committed to the church or I secretly held desires to sin…because it HAD to be something, right? SOMETHING OTHER than the simple reality that the church is NOT what it claims to be.

I was a sixth generation Mormon…have held church callings from the simplest to the most responsible…I was NOT supposed to be the person to leave the church. I am/was immersed in the Utah Mormon culture. I paid my full tithes, I attended the Temple multiple times a month, I read my scriptures daily, I held family home evenings regularly…I STILL want the church to be true.

It was during my research that I encountered information that was not consistent with what I had been taught throughout my life as a 4 year seminary graduate and college institute graduate as well as being a full and active participant in the church since my birth. This is what caused me to start the questioning of my beliefs…conflicting information to the official stories.

I admit that once the questioning began…once the crack in my testimony started, once I started to ask tough questions rather than placing them on the back burner of my mind, the wheels began to fall off. But can’t real truth stand up to questions and scrutiny?

I was not shallow enough to just leave….I fought to maintain my testimony…I DID have long and multiple visits with Bishops, Stake Presidents and YES even General Authorities. I spent time with official church apologist at F.A.R.M.S. as well…I have read volumes of church sponsored explanations for church anomalies…but in the end…not one person, no bishop, SP or GA could answer my questions….in the end the pieces of the puzzle would not fit together the church could not stand up to tough scrutiny nor could it's explanations of reality fit in with what I now know to be the "Real" reality. In the end my faith could not be sustained… “For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope."

The church is either what it claims to be or it is not…there is no middle ground…Joseph either saw God or he did not, the Book of Mormon is either a factual history of a band of Israelites that were the forefathers of the American Indians or it is not…Joseph either translated Abrahams writings from Egyptian Hieroglyphics into the Book of Abraham or he did not. Thomas Monson either talks with God or he does not. As I’ve said before the church may be the greatest thing ever invented by man, but if it was invented…it does not deserve our involvement…for then, it is nothing more than a damnable false hope.
Monday, November 24, 2008 9:24:00 AM

The Blog said...
That wasn't really an answer to my question. What exactly isn't the church being honest about?
Were you inadvertently saying that Joseph Smith didn't see God and Jesus Christ? Were you saying that The Book of Mormon isn't written by a band of Israelites that are descendants of the Indians? Are you saying President Monson doesn't speak with God?
I don't think it's wrong to ask questions and anyone can choose to believe whatever the want to. I do know however, when I think something is wrong I stop associating myself with it. Why waste your time trying to prove something is wrong to everyone else? Why not just drop it?
What I have found is that when people leave the church they just can't stand to leave it alone. Leave it alone. Let people believe what they want to believe.
The way I see it, living the life the church encourages; abstain from drugs, alcohol, premarital sex, immodesty... etc. promotes healthy lifestyle, eat healthy, exercise, pray, read uplifting material (bible, book of mormon, other edifying books) be happy...etc. is the healthiest way to live. Do all members of the church live this way? NO. Would any person in the world be happier if they lived this way? YES.
Even if The LDS church isn't the true church of God on Earth, why try to discourage people from living a life that brings them happiness?
Monday, November 24, 2008 11:04:00 AM

The Blog said... Oh, and I wasn't making any accusations in my first question at all. I was simply wondering.
Monday, November 24, 2008 11:06:00 AM


Cr@ig said... That wasn't really an answer to my question. What exactly isn't the church being honest about?
Well “The Blog” since you’ve asked so kindly, let me try to be more specific. There are so many lies taught as truth in Mormonism…but here are just a few of the lies propagated by the Mormon Church:
*****************************
01. The Mormon Lie

God the Father has a body of flesh and bone

01. The Truth

Joseph Smith taught that God the Father was a body of
spirit, not physical, years after the supposed first vision. Why would he do this if he had in fact seen God and left the grove knowing God had a physical body of flesh and bone? See Lectures on Faith once part of the Mormon D&C now removed because it conflicted with other Mormon claims.

**************************************

02. The Mormon Lie

Joseph was an industrious hard working young man

02. The Truth

Joseph was a glass-looking, literally defrauding people out of their money by claiming to be able to find treasure by placing a rock in his hat.

************************************

03. The Mormon Lie

Joseph had actual Golden Plates in his presence that he translated into the Book of Mormon (think of the famous Mormon picture) Ummm it’s a lie…didn’t happen at all like that.

03. The Truth

Joseph buried his head in a hat on his lap with his peep stone enclosed to dictate the Book of Mormon text to his scribe...there were NO Gold Plates anywhere insight.

******************************

04. The Mormon Lie

Joseph lived the Word of Wisdom after it was revealed to him.

04. The Truth

Joseph never lived the Word of Wisdom and more than likely had an alcohol addiction. He even drank the night he was killed in the gun fight.

******************************

05. The Mormon Lie

Joseph was a virtuous, loving and faithful husband to Emma the perfect example of husbandhood and participated reluctantly in polygamy only after having his life threatened by an angel from God

05. The Truth

Joseph lied to Emma, he was involved with polygamous marriages more than 10 years before ever informing Emma. His first affair was with his own house maid 16 year old Fanny Alger.

******************************

06. The Mormon Lie

There are volumes of archeological evidence to support the historicity of the Book of Mormon.

06. The Truth

There is NO archeological evidence to support the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Nothing, nadda.

******************************

07. The Mormon Lie

Native American’s and Polynesians are descendants of an Israelite named Lehi.

07. The Truth

Native Americans descended from North-West Asia; Polynesians descended from South East Asia... not from an Israelite forefather and certainly not from each other.

****************************

08. The Mormon Lie

The “Nauvoo Expositor” was nothing but lies and a public nuisance.

08. The Truth

The “Nauvoo Expositor” was destroyed for actually exposing the truth about Joseph Smith.

******************************

09. The Mormon Lie

Brigham Young only taught Adam-God as a simple theory not as a binding a doctrine.

09. The Truth

Brigham Young DID teach the Adam-God Theory as church doctrine…those that failed to comply were threatened with excommunication for apsotacy.

******************************

10. The Mormon Lie

Joseph was a prophet of God and was not involved with the Occult

10. The Truth

Joseph died with a Jupiter Talisman (an occult symbol) in his pocket while at Carthage

******************************

11. The Mormon Lie

The Book of Abraham is an inspired translation of the papyrus written by the hand of Abraham.

11. The Truth

The Book of Abraham is a fraud. The papyrus is a common Egyptian funeral text it has nothing what-so-ever to do with Abraham.

******************************

12. The Mormon Lie

The various “First Vision” accounts are harmonious and support each other.

12. The Truth

At least four different "First Vision" stories exist either written or narrated by Joseph Smith which are in complete odds with eachother.

******************************

13. The Mormon Lie

Joseph was a moral man.

13. The Truth

One of Joseph Smith's plural wives was a 14 year old girl named Helen Mar Kimball, daughter of Heber C. Kimball and Vilate Kimball.

******************************

14. The Mormon Lie

The Mountain Meadows Massacre was unfortunate incident perpetrated by Indians and men acting on their own.

14. The Truth

Mormons, acting either under local direction or Young's direction, murdered innocent men, woman and children at the Mountain Meadows in southern Utah.

******************************

15. The Mormon Lie

The Temple Endowment was a restoration of temple ordinances lost from Solomon’s Temple of old.

15. The Truth

Joseph Smith plagiarized Masonic Temple ceremonies from the 1700’s into the LDS endowment within weeks of receiving them.

******************************

16. The Mormon Lie

The fact that we haven’t yet found evidence of these animals does not mean that they did not exist.

16. The Truth

There were no horses, sheep cattle, elephants etc in pre-Columbian America despite BoM claims.

******************************

17. The Mormon Lie

God gave Joseph’s father Lehi’s dream to prepare him for the Book of Mormon.

17. The Truth

Joseph Smith, incorporated his father’s 1813 dream into the Book of Mormon and attributed it to Lehi

******************************

18. The Mormon Lie

Joseph prophesied of the coming of the Civil War years prior to it coming

18. The Truth

Joseph articulated current events that any informed person of the day could have lifted from local news papers

************************************

19. The Mormon Lie

Joseph’s scribe, William Clayton, got it wrong in claiming that Joseph had started the translation of the fraudulent Kinderhook plates.

19. The Truth

William Clayton was good enough as a scribe when he wrote down Smith’s “1820 First Vision” claim in 1838 why not when he also detailed Joseph’s so-called first vision?

******************************
And that is just a few of the many lies.

I’ll share more thoughts when I have the time…
Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:07:00 PM

The Blog said...
Cr@ig,

I have read through each and every one of your disputations and couldn't help but feel regret that you have placed so much weight on these points.

I have dedicated much of my life to the study of many philosophies, ideas, opinions as well as LDS doctrine coupled with anti-LDS beliefs.

I am easily able to refute each and every single one of your points. Since my time is limited, I thought it would be just as well to go over even the first one.

"01. The Mormon Lie

God the Father has a body of flesh and bone

01. The Truth

Joseph Smith taught that God the Father was a body of
spirit, not physical, years after the supposed first vision. Why would he do this if he had in fact seen God and left the grove knowing God had a physical body of flesh and bone? See Lectures on Faith once part of the Mormon D&C now removed because it conflicted with other Mormon claims."

I have read the entire Lectures on Faith and have it right here with me. Please give me a reference that says God does not have a body of flesh and bone. I am unable to locate any. Also, the Lectures on Faith was removed from the D&C not because they "conflicted with other Mormon claims" but they were "removed because they are not specific revelations to the Church and were never sustained as such" which the Doctrine and Covenants were. If they conflicted, wouldn't the Church not publish them, and even tell the Saints not to read them? I find on the contrary, "these lectures are of great value and should be studied... I consider them to be of extreme value in the study of the gospel of Jesus Christ."-President Joseph Fielding Smith

After I read your first point, it completely removed any credibility you had.

Your tone is the same as many anti-Mormons. In an effort to discredit the Church, you throw out mixed ideas that you think make a point, but in turn expose your weakness in not only study, but in sound reason.

My friend, I hope you can see through the thick cloud of your own pride and repent of your sins, that you can enjoy the light and happiness you once had, instead of trying to justify your actions in vain.

"When once that light which was in them is taken from them they become as much darkened as they were previously enlightened."

"And thus we can plainly discern, that after a people have been once enlightened by the Spirit of God, and have had great knowledge of things pertaining to righteousness, and then have fallen away into sin and transgression, they become more hardened, and thus their state becomes worse than though they had never known these things."-Alma 24:30
Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:50:00 AM


The Blog Said: I have read through each and every one of your disputations and couldn't help but feel regret that you have placed so much weight on these points.

Cr@ig’s Response: Oh please… save your emotions , I’ve only scratched the surface…as to my points holding weight…they speak for themselves…but hey, I have an open mind…so If I am wrong in any of my conclusions…I’d love to be shown the errors of my ways….can you say the same for yourself? Is Truth more important to you than family, culture, religion, tradition and public image? Would you really dare or care to know the truth? Because until you value truth more than these other things…you will not be in a position to accept Truth.


The Blog Said: I have dedicated much of my life to the study of many philosophies, ideas, opinions as well as LDS doctrine coupled with anti-LDS beliefs.

Cr@ig’s Response:
Characterizing information that brings into question Mormon claims as “ANTI” is an emotional-think-stopping-question-quelling-tool often used by cults. The Mormon Church and its apologist like to place anything that brings into question their claims…as “ANTI”. A real truth seeker would not. Neither I nor my blog are ANTI-Mormon….I am PRO-TRUTH. I have a very open mind and will gladly correct any posted thought of mine that can be proven to be in error. Why doesn’t the Mormon Church do the same…if they do in fact treasure truth above all other virtues? But instead they prop up their claims even after they have been completely debunked and shown to be false claims.

The Blog Said: I am easily able to refute each and every single one of your points. {REALLY? Be my guest} Since my time is limited, I thought it would be just as well to go over even the first one.

{Ok Bring it on}

"01. The Mormon Lie

God the Father has a body of flesh and bone

01. The Truth

Joseph Smith taught that God the Father was a body of
spirit, not physical, years after the supposed first vision. Why would he do this if he had in fact seen God and left the grove knowing God had a physical body of flesh and bone? See Lectures on Faith once part of the Mormon D&C now removed because it conflicted with other Mormon claims."

I have read the entire Lectures on Faith and have it right here with me. Please give me a reference that says God does not have a body of flesh and bone. I am unable to locate any.

Cr@ig’s Response: Please give you a reference that says that God does not have a body of flesh and bone? This is a classic Mormon Straw man argument, prove a negative. Of course there is NO reference that states emphatically that God “DOES NOT” have a body of flesh and bone and you know it. Rather we have a onetime canonized scripture/ now uncanonized, emphatically stating that “…The Father being {is} a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fullness: {while} The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, {is} a personage of tabernacle, made, or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man, or, rather, man was formed after his likeness, and in his image.

How much clearer does it have to be for you “Blog”? Joseph Smith is Juxtaposing the spirit comprised personage of God the Father against the flesh and bone composed Jesus Christ. Had it been Smith’s intent to teach that God had a body of flesh and bone in 1834, when he taught the Lectures on Faith, he could have easily done so…After all, you believe he knew this concept when he emerged from the grove in 1820…but the truth is that his concept of God being like man (with flesh and bone) had not evolved to the point that it eventually did in 1843, when he declaired in D&C 130.

So here’s my challenge to you…”IF” as you seem to believe, this concept of God having a body of Flesh and Bone was a commonly taught doctrine before 1843….show me “Any” reference before 1843 where “Any” Mormon Authority taught that God had a body of Flesh and Bone. Take all the time you’d like…. But it’s not there, because prior to 1843…Mormon’s believed and taught that God the Father was a personage of SPIRIT.

Blog, having dedicated {so} much of your life to the study of many philosophies, ideas, opinions as well as LDS doctrine… I’m sure that you are well aware that during the Kirtland period of church history Joseph Smith taught a traditional trinity view of the Godhead. This is well documented and further supported by the original trinity concepts {now removed} from the first editions of the Book of Mormon.

Blog Stated: Also, the Lectures on Faith was removed from the D&C not because they "conflicted with other Mormon claims" but they were "removed because they are not specific revelations to the Church and were never sustained as such" which the Doctrine and Covenants were.

Cr@ig’s Response: Hummm…The Mormon D&C is FULL of Non revelations…in fact you probably are unaware that one of the most quoted and beloved so-called Mormon canonized scriptures was NOT a revelation at all, but a mere personal letter Smith wrote to his wife Emma while incarcerated in Liberty Jail. The love letter parts were edited out and the well written "scripture quality" prose (something Smith was very good at) was added to the D&C as section 121 in 1880. It was NOT a revelation at all…but a well written love letter from a husband under duress to one of his many wives.

So the Fact that the Lectures on Faith were not so-called revelations is Not the reason they were removed…it was because by 1921when they were removed, the concept of God being a personage of "Spirit" had evolved within Mormonism and it conflicted with the then taught view of the godhead being taught by the church in 1921 when it was removed…otherwise all sections that were included in the D&C that were not-so-called-revelations would have been removed as well. But they were not.

Blog States: After I read your first point, it completely removed any credibility you had.

Cr@ig’s Response: Seriously…you need to redefine your definition of “Credibility” I find myself quite credible…since your premise and claims to my stated Mormon Lie on the godhead…has withstood your sad apologetic attempt.



Blog States: Your tone is the same as many anti-Mormons. In an effort to discredit the Church, you throw out mixed ideas that you think make a point, but in turn expose your weakness in not only study, but in sound reason.

Cr@ig’s Response: Blog your use of Mormon think stopping emotional triggers such as “Anti-Mormon” will NOT be tolerated on MY blog. As for discrediting the so-called church with my mixed ideas, weak study and lack of sound reason…I await your reply to my above mentioned Challenge. We'll see just how weak it really is. Good luck! Next time bring your best game...you're not messing with a neophyte.

Blog States: My friend,{we’re NOT friends…but I’m certainly open to meeting with you over a cup ‘O coffee someday} I hope you can see through the thick cloud of your own pride and repent of your sins, that you can enjoy the light and happiness you once had, instead of trying to justify your actions in vain.

Cr@ig’s Response: Get off your sanctimonious ramiumptum “Blog” and open your own eyes to the reality of the false claims of Mormonism… If you really do cherish truth…you will scrutinize and really examine all of Mormonisms truth claims rather than blindly accepting them because they come from your so-called prophetic leaders or some other emotional faith promoting feeling you might have experienced…for as Thomas Edison so wisely stated “…For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope."

And Mormonism is built on a foundation of myths, historical distortions and down-right lies...it cannot be what it claims to be.
Wednesday, November 26, 2008 11:47:00 AM

28 comments:

Meagan said...

Great post Craig! Not only is it correct, but very witty! I just want to add a note for "blog"... You mentioned how anti-mormons "can't leave it alone" and "to just let people believe what they want to believe". Just remember blog, you spent 2 years preaching what you believe and your taught to live your life as a missionary. Why can't you just let non-believers alone? Why can't they believe what they want to believe? Why do you feel you must voice your beliefs?

Cr@ig said...

Thanks Meagan,

I meant to comment on that false over used Mormon claim that former members can’t leave the Church alone….believe you me…I want nothing to do with the church and would gladly give up this blog if they would get the fuck out of my live.

The arrogance of Church members is that they are right and everyone else is wrong...so they feel a religious responsibility, obligation and right to tell everyone else that they are wrong. Its bull shit!

They can push their religious views on others and think it is their right to do so but when we return fire by creating blogs to deal with our frustration at their failure to leave us alone they pull out their false cult phrase book and state…”Why is it that you can leave the church but you can’t leave the church alone?”...blah blah blah… they fail to see the irony

I have been out of the church for nearly 6 years...but living along the Wasatch front...they have YET to start to leave me alone...despite my many kind requests for them to do so.

Telling others how to live their own lives is a mental disorder with Mormon's...it's just part of their DNA.

The Blog said...

(I just posted under an unfamiliar name. Just wanted to post under TheBlog so you knew it was me and not someone else.)

Craig,

I am flattered that you would dedicate a blog post to our conversation. Regrettably I don't have the time that I would like to discuss your points of disputation.

I could write a thesis on every single point you brought up, and in turn you would write a book in response. I guess that is just the way this kind of thing goes, round and round in circles. :)

You like to throw out the term "truth". Well, neither you nor I know all the truth out there, can we agree on that? Perhaps you know truths that I don't and I know truths that you don't. How does one come to a knowledge of truth? By being open, honest, and respectful, willing to give and take. I believe there is an additional higher order, a divine confirmation of truth, that can only come by being receptive to it. That's my belief, take it as you will.

{Uh oh, here comes the testimony, them Marmans always do this!} Only you can know what is true for you. Everyone who reads this should give divine confirmation a try. I have already tried your way of studying both sides. I have come to understand, doing BOTH is the key.

I grew up on the opposite side of the country where you grew up, where no one even knew what a "Mormon" was. At a young age, I figured out the formula for gaining inspiration, and it hasn't failed me yet.

Perhaps this wasn't the fired up response you were looking forward to, but it is what it is. I appreciate you letting me be a guest on your blog and share my thoughts. I don't have time to respond to any more posts, so best wishes and good luck!

{Place "witty" rebuttal here ;)}

Cr@ig said...

The Blog Said: I am flattered that you would dedicate a blog post to our conversation.

Cr@ig’s Response: You flatter easily…but seem genuine and sincere. May I ask how you found my little corner of the World Wide Web? Doing research for a Sunday School lesson perhaps?

The Blog Said : Regrettably I don't have the time that I would like to discuss your points of disputation.

Cr@ig’s Response: To bad…I’ve enjoyed the joust.

The Blog Said: I could write a thesis on every single point you brought up, and in turn you would write a book in response. I guess that is just the way this kind of thing goes, round and round in circles. :)

Cr@ig’s Response: funny but yeah it usually does…I was once were you are…offering apologetics for the so-called good side…being one of Saturdays Warriors offering a defense against the minions of Satan. Hard to believe now.

So “Blog“, I’ll hold out hope that you too can figure things out.

The Blog said: You like to throw out the term "truth". Well, neither you nor I know all the truth out there, can we agree on that? Perhaps you know truths that I don't and I know truths that you don't. How does one come to knowledge of truth? By being open, honest, and respectful, willing to give and take. I believe there is an additional higher order, a divine confirmation of truth that can only come by being receptive to it. That's my belief, take it as you will.

Cr@ig’s Response: Yes, Truth is important to me. If Mormonism was what it claimed to be…the discovery method could be consistently duplicated. Much like the scientific method of discovering truth, the process must be reproducible, repeatable, predictable and observable under controlled conditions… discovering truth using this method will always result in the same answer. But the problem with Mormonism’s truth discovery process is that it is NONE of those…several people doing the same exact process of asking god if it is true…WILL and DO come to multiple conclusion regarding Mormonism’s claims.

Usually those that do not receive the promised answer are told to repeat the process more sincerely. When yet that doesn’t work the seeker becomes the problem not the process. It’s a “double bind”. A no win process…that spells fraud.

Yet when one places greater value in discovering the truth rather than maintaining belief…and actually examines and scrutinizes Mormonism’s claims…one can easy discover the truth. It’s right there in front of you…all you have to do is dare to take that first step…and ask the hard questions. There are answers. But first you need to be willing to study and accept the possibility…that maybe…just maybe…you have been part of a well crafted and executed scam.

The Blog Said: {Uh oh, here comes the testimony, them Marmans always do this!} Only you can know what is true for you. Everyone who reads this should give divine confirmation a try. I have already tried your way of studying both sides. I have come to understand, doing BOTH is the key.

I grew up on the opposite side of the country where you grew up, where no one even knew what a "Mormon" was. At a young age, I figured out the formula for gaining inspiration, and it hasn't failed me yet.

Perhaps this wasn't the fired up response you were looking forward to, but it is what it is. I appreciate you letting me be a guest on your blog and share my thoughts. I don't have time to respond to any more posts, so best wishes and good luck!

{Place "witty" rebuttal here ;)}

Cr@ig’s Response: Well you’re welcome to visit and comment any time...best of luck.

meagan said...

Irony, yes that's the word...all ironic and self righteous. I wish you the best with your wife and hope one day she will allow her guard to come down and subject herself to the vulnerability of reality. Once she accepts the truth, it really is all down hill from there. But at the same time these fun blogs could end:(

Simeon said...

Craig,

This guy is a total ass hat. Classic bullshit. He sounds just like the Stake President that ex'd me.

Michelle said...

Hi! I just stumbled upon your blog through other ex-mo blogs. You have a great way of writing! It's always refreshing to find other intelligent ex-mo's out there! Do you mind if I add you to my blogroll?

Cr@ig said...

not at all, be my guest... BUT, I've lost alot of my desire to blog about Mormonism...so I won't be saying too much more in the future...I'm moving on...

Darrin said...

I came upon your blog by pure accident looking for something else. I read some of what you've had to say, and about what you've been through. You're not alone in the things you've had to deal with. My wife left me, I transgressed and was exed myself. I still am not a member. I've studied all the anti-mormon stuff, I've read their blogs, their logical "truths" etc, etc, etc.... and I've learned that history can be distorted by anyone. The "truths" the mormons claim vs the "truths" those against the church claim. So how do you know who is telling the real truth?
As human beings, we tend to believe the "truths" that best support what we want to believe. Don't say that you "wanted" to believe the church was true, but too much information stopped you. Having "sinned" and then being exed, deep down inside you wanted to be liberated from the responsiblity of your sin. Best way to do that is to "know" the church isn't true. If it's not true, you can escape the punishment. I've been down that road. Please don't lump all Mormons as the arrogant "I'm right you're wrong" types. There are many understanding mormons out there. We just tend to remember the ones who aren't living the way they should, nor treating others the way they should have been taught. Being exed has actually helped me to open my eyes to a lot of things in the church.
But this is all beside the point. I guess the question now is do you even believe in God? Becuase if you do, you at least know that He is the one who can let you know what is true and what is not. In your life, you will find the truths you need to find. There are things you need to learn and experience in this life that others may not have to. But because of the things you go through, you will be that much more prepared to help others placed in similiar circumstances. Whether the church is true or not is up to you to keep discovering, but what you can't deny is trying to live your life the best you know how, and to love your family and help them.
Some non-mormon books that have helped me to be a better person, without the mormon slant are written by C.S. Lewis: "Mere Christainity", and "The Screwtape Letters". Same books, easy reads. I encourage you to casually read them if you have some time.
Walk down the path you chose, not the one others choose for you. "To thine own self be true."
Remember, this life is about finding joy, for you and for those you love. Pain is inevitable. Misery is optional.
Godspeed

Anonymous said...

Hey Craig, I stumbled upon your blog in my search for truth!! I am in the iddle of leaving the LDS church. My oldest daughter and her husband are with me, my hubby is having a harder time because of the kids, 18 yr old daughter with very strong beliefs, a son serving a mission and a 15 yr old son who hates going to church (dont most 15 yr old boys!!) I'm currently the RS secretary although I have asked to be released. I dont think it really counts though cause I only asked the pres.!! I guess I need to tell the bishop. Anyway I enjoy your blog

Crystal :)

swords99 said...

Craig, I think you did a wonderful job in your dialogue with "the blog". I noticed that he didn't refute each and every one of your "mormon lies". He just simply resorted to attacking you which is a typical LDS response when they feel cornered. He claimed he could easily refute all the "lies" you quoted, yet he didn't even try! Why? Because he couldn't! The LDS church never can find the integrity to say: Oops, we made a mistake, or oops, Joseph Smith err. No, instead they will dismiss you as "anti" mormon and the dialogue ends abruptly. I have never had a dialogue with an LDS who was willing to keep the line of communication open. The sad thing is they fear investigation. They want the lies. God said He would turn some people over to powerful illusions if they keep rejecting the truth. This is exactly what has happened to the mormons. Sad, very sad.

swords99

swords99 said...

Craig, What I can't understand is why do Mormons push this double standard. They hate it when we Christians witness and spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and yet here they go door to door all over the world!

Anonymous said...

psalms 63 "Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even bitter words: that they may shoot in secret at the perfect: suddenly do they shoot at him, and fear not. They encourage themselves in an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily they say, who shall see us? They search out iniquities... but God shall shoot at them with an arrow, suddenly shall they be wounded.,So they shall make their own tongue to fall upon themselves, all that see them shall fless away.. and all men shall fear, and shall declare the Work of God, for they shall wisely consider of His doing. The righteous shall be glad in the Lord, and shall trust in Him and all the upright in heart shall glory.."

Show me ONE happy exmo, post mo, anti mo.. just One....I have yet in my 10 years on the internet met one, successful in life, happy exmo..

Kittywaymo Hey have you licked your "problem" with self abuse yet Cr@ig????

Cr@ig said...

Gee anonymous...I guess that confirmed that you've never met me...I'm extremely successful and happy. dude you ned to get out more...your sterotypical view of what an exmo is has been squewed by your narrow Mormon viewpoint.

Would it destory your puny little world to know that most peole who leave the mormon cult are actaully happier AFTER they leave the cult than when they were in it trying to juggle all the many conficting claims within your cult.

Life is wonderful and good...and has never been better...with one exception...when I come in contact with Mormon cultist like yourself you can not even bare to question or doubt (might be a sin to question or doubt) But dude do what ever u like.

As for your claim to my imagined self abuse problem ...lol...your Mormon fucked up world of guilt and view of sin as a means to control ones life...well I wish u well with that one...just don't "get off" thinking of me ok...now that would be fucked up.

swords99 said...

Hey Anonymous,
I guess you've never heard of Jerald and Sandra Tanner. Sandra being the great, great granddaughter of Brigham Young. They left the mormon church and said it best: You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.

There's 2 very happy ex mo's for ya!

The Lyoness said...

Hey Craig, great post!!! I found it hilarious that "the Blog" was going to refute everything, but now, OOPS!, look at that, I am too busy now, so long farewell and good luck...

Well, how much more telling does it get than that? Perhaps there is no way to refute it, so it's better to try to save face and not admit to it? Nah, that can't be...

Anyway, I'm sad that you're not posting anymore, but I completely understand. It takes a lot of time and mental energy to write about something that has been a negative influence in your life.

Not to be too spammy, but for anyone interested, I have started up a blog where I am posting the stories of ex-Mormons. So for any readers who want to read the stories of other ex-Mormons, or want to write up their own story as a cathartic cleansing, feel free to check out my site (click on my name above) and look around. I'd love to have you.

Good luck, Craig!

~Lyoness

Mark said...

Hi Cr@ig. I thank you for your list of 'lies' and I wish you would continue it. As a scientist, I find the lack of Archaeological evidence to support the book of mormon very interesting. I know mormon scientist, and wonder how they cannot be more critical of the book that they base their life on. A good scientist cannot ignore evidence which speaks either for or against what they believe to be true. As I understand it, there are rivers and mountains referred to in the book of mormon that are not where they should be if the book were true.

I was looking for some clarity on what mormons believe (I am not one, but live in an area where there are many), and read a book called 'Mormonism, mamma, and me' by Thelma Greer. I found it a good book, but as I am not a mormon and have never been one, I'm not sure my opinions are correct. I can only make decisions on the evidence that I understand.

I wonder, are there incidences of Evangelical Christians who leave their faiths and blog about it? Are there books in the Mormon libraries like that of Thelma Greer that discuss the falsities of the Christian (Evangelical) faith?

Thanks,
Mark

swords99 said...

Mark,
Yes there are plenty of people who have left the Christian (Evangelical) faith and write books, blogs and a website. There's Bart Erhlman (Sp?) who wrote the book, "Misquoting Jesus", who went from believing in Jesus and the Bible, to now being what he calls a "happy Agnostic". Usually those who leave Christianity do so because they never truly believed in the first place. Their "conversion" perhaps was false or they never fully understood the foundation of true Christianity and thus never really embraced it. So they end up becoming either an atheist, agnostic, or join a "cult".
For mormons, we see a sad desperation to hold onto their faith and false belief systems even with the ever surmounting evidence against them. This is because they see no other alternative to Mormonism as they have been so indoctrinated by the teachings of Joseph Smith that all other Christian faiths are wrong, their creeds are an abomination and their pastors are corrupt. For mormons to leave their church is almost equivalent to death.

Advice said...

Cr@ig,

I just stumbled across your blog and think it's amazing. Maybe you could offer me some advice. I am a 26-year-old lifelong Utahn who no longer believes. I am stuggling with how to tell my friends. Most of my friends are true believers to the max, and they think I still buy into the B.S. Do I keep living the lie? Or do I tell them where I stand. It's sad because most of them are very smart and rational and willing to listen to logic - accept when it comes to the church. I am worried I might lose some friendships if I told them how I really feel. I.E., it's all a total crock. Thanks.

Cr@ig said...

Welcome "Advice" and thanks for your kind remarks. Could you give me alittle more info about your situation. Are U an RM? Are u living at home? Are u're parents active members?

If you feel comfortable let me know where in Utah u live also

Thanks Craig

swords99 said...

The important thing to remember if you no longer believe in mormonism is to trust and believe in Jesus Christ alone for your salvation.
Although losing fiends and families is hard, what did Jesus say to the new followers who wanted to run home first and tell the family? Jesus said: "Let the dead bury the dead and come follow me". Who do you wish to obey, your family, Or Jesus?

To live a lie in order to please others or keep the peace is wrong. Take a stand for Jesus Christ and live by example. Let your life be an example to your family and friends who are LDS and witness to them every chance you get.

Advice said...

Hey Cr@ig,

I am not an RM, but was very active in the church until about four years ago. I was ordained an elder about five years ago. My mom is very active in the church; my dad not at all. My sister was married in the temple about 3 months ago. I, of course, didn't attend. My maternal side of the family is all super active. I live in a small town just south of Ogden, Utah. The reason I ask the question is because most of my friends (about 90 percent of them) are extremely active. And they assume I am too. It feels like a lot of our coversations are fake and I am just playing along. Two of my best friends in particular, are extremely active. They're just really presumptious when it comes to me and the church. And part of that is probably my fault because I've never said anything. They'll send emails about Prop 8 or Big Love or they'll ask me if I watched conference - things like that on a daily basis. It just bothers me because I know I am not being honest. Some people can just play along and pretend everything is fine, but I am finding it harder and harder to do that. Anyway, great blog, very interesting and insightful. Thanks.

Cr@ig said...

Well I do have some advice for you...but feel it is best given in privite. Please email me at Utahpaxton@yahoo.com

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Cr@ig

The Crow Family said...

Cr@ig,

WOW! I just had to laugh when I read this post. I've beeb an ex-mo for two years, and going strong! It amazes me how TBM's think that ex-mormons can't be happy or successful. My family said the same thing to me. They didn't think we (my husband and I) could raise good children unless we were members. The BEST THING I ever did for my children was to leave the church. You wouldn't believe what little critical thinkers I have.

I'm lucky, my husband and I left at the same time, and our marriage is 100 times better than it was before. There's no pressure to be perfect, no patriarch having the final say, and no guilt after having a glass of wine with dinner. It's funny, once you stop relying on "God" to take care of you and you start taking care of yourself, life becomes so much eaiser!

Thanks for this blog. All your points that you covered have all been researched by me and my husband...it's nice knowing that our reasons for leaving are validated.

Cr@ig said...

You're Welcome...stop by any time...

Cr@ig

Anonymous said...

Why are mormon missionaries out trying to convert Christians to mormonism?

Why don't they live & let live?

Why don't they really use their minds and examine the evidence about their own church?

See Youtube: Edy Meredith Testimony
for my pathway out of the confinement of mormonism

Anonymous said...

I am not a mormon but I it seems to me by a number of your posts there is a great deal of hatred in your heart. The most important thing any of us can do is love our neighbors. It seems this is a hard one for you to swallow. Sorry to hear about how unhappy you are. I am sure there is something out there that can rid the anger in your heart. Just curious what happened to all the relationships in your family?

Mary Child said...

By the way, I disagree with Anonymous above. It is not hatred in your heart; perhaps still just a twinge of anger over a lifetime of being indoctrinated... I still feel this, and am accused all the time of being bitter and angry.

Because Anonymous is not a "Mormon," they can't possibly grasp the betrayal a person feels after having invested a lifetime of their every resource into a false church. Some days I think I'm over it, but it usually only takes one sancitmonious and very misguided believer to bring it all up to the surface again.

I suppose I can agree with Anonymous that one would probably feel more fulfilled by learning how to love the people around us, but when many of the people around us are misinformed Mormons, that becomes a mighty tall order!

I agree with you completely Craig; the Church is NOT what it claims to be, and until one values truth over all else, they won't be able to acknowledge that well-demonstrated fact.

It amazes me that so many members of the Church will accept these ridiculous and far-fetched reasons for the many inconsistencies in the Mormon religion, when it is so much easier to understand that Joseph Smith was just a con-artist. That's it! He was apparently a charming, money-digging, glass-looking, horny, con-artist.

I appreciate your blog because it is clear to me that you are NOT a person full of hate, but a person enlightened with the truth. There just might always be a little part of you that is pissed off about the fact that many loved ones continue to be deluded into believing the lies of the Mormon church.

I know that's the case with me anyway. Thanks for being the voice of reason in Zion. I'm so glad I don't live there...