This post is NOT for the weak at heart.
It is very very long but I thought it was worth preserving and sharing.
Recently I stumbled on a Blog operated by some truly believing Mormon's. They had some intereseting sterotypical views on Mormon apostacy and why members of the church are leaving in droves in their area of the world. They had pretty much confirmed their sterotypes before I entered the fray in an effort to correct their "Pigeonholing". I began, what I considered, an interesting discussion hoping to dispell their biases. Some of their assumptions are quite telling...Enjoy.
I haven't gone to the bother of editing for easier rading...but I think you will be rewarded should you venture on...
**EDIT ALERT**
Ok I had cut the entire thread from the TBM blog and pasted it here on my blog for mere convenience BUT.... One of the TBM's came over here to my sand box and scolded me for posting their personal posts without first seeking their permission (see first comment) Did you honestly think an evil apostate would ask permission first?
But Nicko....I actually agree with you... so I have deleted the entire thread from my blog and instead replaced it with a link to your blog.
http://aroundthefireside.blogspot.com/2008/04/apostasy.html
After all this is the wild wild west of the internet where nothing to held sacred... so although I may respect you're wish...Once something has been posted on the internet....it's pretty much OUT THERE for the taking...it's just how things work in the wild west.
Some wise person once told me...If you don't want something on the "NET" don't put it on the net.
So for those of you curious enough...please clink on the link provided and read the thread on apostacy in its original format...
Happy Now Nicko?
14 comments:
Cr@ig,
Perhaps you should ask before posting our stuff like this on your blog? I'm sure that some of my contributors would not appreciate their names turning up here there and everywhere on the internet...
cheers
Nicko
Cr@ig,
I wasn't trying to be nasty about this. but as you can see there are some on the blog who use their real names, I'm not entirely sure why they do so, but to publish their opinions all over the net is a little icky...don't you agree?...well it seems that you do.
Thankyou for doing that I appreciate it.
I couldn't care less about you publishing my opinions...wouldn't matter to me..I've nothing to hide.
Hi Craig,
Why the antagonism towards Nicko? I'd hardly call his comment a 'scolding', and I can't recall him ever describing you, or anyone else, as an 'evil apostate'. Unfortunately, I would guess there are some intolerant TBMs around who would use such terms (perhaps you've encountered them?), but that's not the case here. I really don't see the need to put words in someone's mouth when they're making an effort at constructive dialogue. Unjustly ascribing such attitudes to those who disagree with you is pure intolerance, which is ironic because you seem to have been a victim of intolerance yourself by TBM friends/family.
Regards,
TB
Oh PPPLLLEEEAAASSSEEE....
Lighten up a bit...I'm just having some fun with y'all...
BUT on my blog I require no respect except to ME! Here I am KING! Now bow down and show me some respect.
:Bows before entering your kingdome:
Nicko seems to be making the rounds these days. I have seen him on many ex/post-mormon blogs recently. It's nice to see him following the advice of his leaders and makeing his voice heard on the internet.
Cr@ig,
Thanks for standing up for us “apostates”! The ideas expressed by Nicko & Company make my blood boil. Just like the leaders of the Morg, they fail to actually recognize the fact that we have issues with doctrine and teachings that have nothing to do with personal worthiness or weakness. It's much easier to believe when the only ones that fall away are those who let their faith waver and become traped by Satan. If only that were true, then they would not even have to entertain the idea that their leaders are less then honest with them.
The great irony here, Craig and Soy Yo, is that you rail against the intolerance of TBMs towards you, yet return that intolerance in equal measure. Do I think that ex-mos generally have issues with faith that SUPPLEMENT problems with doctrines/history? Yes! But that's based on my experiences with ex-mos, not on what some church leader has told me. Is my view intolerant? Well, if it is, your view of me being unwilling to face the 'truth' about Mormonism, is equally intolerant. So where does that leave us?
This victim mentality you cling to is really too much. I could use it too, after all, given your view of MY beliefs and attitude. I hope you move on from this - certainly, I know many ex-mos you have, so there's hope.
I have ongoing, positive dialogue with a number of ex-mos (who incidentally also bemoan the victim mentality they perceive amongst some ex-mos), and there's mutual respect all 'round. They acknowledge the legitimacy of me continuing to believe despite challenging doctrinal/historical issues, and I acknowledge their position that it presents too much a hurdle. Underlying that, to reconcile our differences I know they think that I'm slightly self-delusional, and they know that I think other issues were a catalyst for their decisions. But there's no offence taken on other side, and the friendship is strong. But with you guys it's just all anger and frustration, perhaps stirred up by negative experiences with TBM family/friends. The problem is that you're tarring all TBM with the same brush.
To be clear, I'm in complete agreeance with you that the behaviour of many TBMs towards ex-mos leaves a lot to be desired. There's not enough compassion, too much judging, and not enough listening. But there's no point alienating all TBMs, particularly those of us that acknowledge the difficulties presented by Mormon history/doctrine, as a consequence.
TB,
Welcome to MY Blog, Where all views are welcomed...even yours.
And believe it or not...I agree with much of what you've said. I appreciate your willingness for open diologue.
Please feel free to contribute anytime...
Is that better?
Trust me on this one tb. When you grow up gay and mormon, and really try to do everything right and be a good little mormon boy, you end up getting hurt. Just saying someone has a "victim mentality" doesn't mean they weren't a victim.
The church does active harm to gay and lesbian members. So when we finally leave to pick up the pieces of our lives and sanity there is naturally anger, bitterness and sometimes downright hatred. And it will sometimes splash on TBMs, especially when they don their mormon armor and charge in wielding their doctrinal swords. I'm not accusing you of doing that in this conversation on cr@ig's blog at all. All I mean to say is, if you go in fighting for the church, don't be surprised if people fight back.
I think perhaps the most incorrect apostasy stereotype is that exmos left because they wanted to sin. There are people like me who wanted to sin, and also doubted much in Mormon Doctrine. So I'm okay with that stereotype, if applied to me. Sinning was much more entertaining than doing home teaching, that's for sure. If I hadn't discovered the controversies that lead so many non-sinning Mormons into sinning ex-Mormons - I would probably have gone ahead and sinned anyway. I haven't tried, I think, to justify my apostasy on doctrinal grounds alone (although this is important). The "robotic" LDS lifestyle just bored the hell out of me. The controversies were the icing on the cake, because now I could do what I really always wanted to do - sin. My natural habitat. According to LDS doctrine, I'm now an enemy to God because of my gross carnal ways, such as indulging in a beer and uttereing the F-word (and much more). I'm obviously depraved, and what I have to say about Mormonism is grossly coloured by my penchant for sin. I'm okay with that too. But as Galileo is reported to have said:
"Take note, theologians, that in your desire to make matters of faith out of propositions relating to the fixity of sun and earth you run the risk of eventually having to condemn as heretics those who would declare the earth to stand still and the sun to change position--eventually, I say, at such a time as it might be physically or logically proved that the earth moves and the sun stands still."
Even if Galileo was a hopeless alcoholic who left the Church to sin - it would not change the facts he discovered.
Jake,
Congratulations on taking your life back. Mormonism is a very narrow, conservative, mind controlling institution...I consider myself lucky for being able to escape it's gravitational pull...looks like you've done well too.
Ray,
I loved what you posted. Although I didn't have a desire to sin, I now find what Mormons term as sinning quite appealing to my life.
which brings up an idea for a future post on my blog..."what is sin?"
As a Mormon I allowed the Mormon institution to define sin for me. No more!
Sin no longer exisits in my life. And as such I am sin free and guilt free. something I was NEVER free of while an active Mormon.
Now I am still a honest, moral, law abiding person...Mormonism didn't make me such...it was just my nature.
Interesting how gult jsut disappears once you are free of the mormon power in your life.
Now where did I put my bottle of Beer?
PS: Everyone who says their belief is a "feeling" in their heart is ignoring the fact that we are instructed by God to guard our hearts and that it is treacherous and every sort of desire we can dream up and rationalize will manifest in our heart, because our heart itself is our key to eternal life and how we gaurd it(or fill it) determines if we are remaining honest and open to truth. True faith is from wisdom but true wisdom comes from knowledge and knowledge is factual evidence which is what enables us to guard our hearts from humanly inconceivable and unreasonable teachings. If God wanted us to be mystified, he would have left a book out of the equation. He made a complete book that applies to every human on earth. Would you put faith in a used car at a used car lot without ever checking under the hood? The bible says most people in our day would act in this way due to all the distractions of our day....The common thread of all religions except truth goes back to the original lie which was "You positively will not die" which we DO. We do not in any way survive the physical death of our body and if we believe that we do, we are taking the devil's side in believing the sugar coated story that we are in some way still living....If we do not trust enough in God's ability to resurrect us from being completely dead then we should consider how strong our faith really is. The original lie reveals the truth...too bad so sad DEVIL..hehehe.
Candi-
PSS: The bible doesn't say we cant drink PARTY UP for God!
Candi-
Cr@ig, any chance you have the original copy of the posts, as Nicko has resigned his high post of playground monitor and deleted his blog.
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