Buried deep in one of my post is the following joust between me and a poster who goes by the name of "The Blog"...I thought it was worthy of its own post. Enjoy.
The Blog said...
Craig, I was just wondering What foundational history and claims is the church not being honest about?
Sunday, November 16, 2008 2:36:00 PM
Cr@ig said...
Well "the blogger"...I KNOW it is hard for a true believing active member of the church to believe that a former true believing active member of the church could come to a decision that the church is NOT what it claims to be and actually leave the church, resign or just walk away.
Surly there must have been some sin, surly my faith and belief could NOT have been as deep as yours, or maybe it was that I wasn't as committed to the church or I secretly held desires to sin…because it HAD to be something, right? SOMETHING OTHER than the simple reality that the church is NOT what it claims to be.
I was a sixth generation Mormon…have held church callings from the simplest to the most responsible…I was NOT supposed to be the person to leave the church. I am/was immersed in the Utah Mormon culture. I paid my full tithes, I attended the Temple multiple times a month, I read my scriptures daily, I held family home evenings regularly…I STILL want the church to be true.
It was during my research that I encountered information that was not consistent with what I had been taught throughout my life as a 4 year seminary graduate and college institute graduate as well as being a full and active participant in the church since my birth. This is what caused me to start the questioning of my beliefs…conflicting information to the official stories.
I admit that once the questioning began…once the crack in my testimony started, once I started to ask tough questions rather than placing them on the back burner of my mind, the wheels began to fall off. But can’t real truth stand up to questions and scrutiny?
I was not shallow enough to just leave….I fought to maintain my testimony…I DID have long and multiple visits with Bishops, Stake Presidents and YES even General Authorities. I spent time with official church apologist at F.A.R.M.S. as well…I have read volumes of church sponsored explanations for church anomalies…but in the end…not one person, no bishop, SP or GA could answer my questions….in the end the pieces of the puzzle would not fit together the church could not stand up to tough scrutiny nor could it's explanations of reality fit in with what I now know to be the "Real" reality. In the end my faith could not be sustained… “For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope."
The church is either what it claims to be or it is not…there is no middle ground…Joseph either saw God or he did not, the Book of Mormon is either a factual history of a band of Israelites that were the forefathers of the American Indians or it is not…Joseph either translated Abrahams writings from Egyptian Hieroglyphics into the Book of Abraham or he did not. Thomas Monson either talks with God or he does not. As I’ve said before the church may be the greatest thing ever invented by man, but if it was invented…it does not deserve our involvement…for then, it is nothing more than a damnable false hope.
Monday, November 24, 2008 9:24:00 AM
The Blog said...
That wasn't really an answer to my question. What exactly isn't the church being honest about?
Were you inadvertently saying that Joseph Smith didn't see God and Jesus Christ? Were you saying that The Book of Mormon isn't written by a band of Israelites that are descendants of the Indians? Are you saying President Monson doesn't speak with God?
I don't think it's wrong to ask questions and anyone can choose to believe whatever the want to. I do know however, when I think something is wrong I stop associating myself with it. Why waste your time trying to prove something is wrong to everyone else? Why not just drop it?
What I have found is that when people leave the church they just can't stand to leave it alone. Leave it alone. Let people believe what they want to believe.
The way I see it, living the life the church encourages; abstain from drugs, alcohol, premarital sex, immodesty... etc. promotes healthy lifestyle, eat healthy, exercise, pray, read uplifting material (bible, book of mormon, other edifying books) be happy...etc. is the healthiest way to live. Do all members of the church live this way? NO. Would any person in the world be happier if they lived this way? YES.
Even if The LDS church isn't the true church of God on Earth, why try to discourage people from living a life that brings them happiness?
Monday, November 24, 2008 11:04:00 AM
The Blog said... Oh, and I wasn't making any accusations in my first question at all. I was simply wondering.
Monday, November 24, 2008 11:06:00 AM
Cr@ig said... That wasn't really an answer to my question. What exactly isn't the church being honest about?
Well “The Blog” since you’ve asked so kindly, let me try to be more specific. There are so many lies taught as truth in Mormonism…but here are just a few of the lies propagated by the Mormon Church:
*****************************
01. The Mormon Lie
God the Father has a body of flesh and bone
01. The Truth
Joseph Smith taught that God the Father was a body of
spirit, not physical, years after the supposed first vision. Why would he do this if he had in fact seen God and left the grove knowing God had a physical body of flesh and bone? See Lectures on Faith once part of the Mormon D&C now removed because it conflicted with other Mormon claims.
**************************************
02. The Mormon Lie
Joseph was an industrious hard working young man
02. The Truth
Joseph was a glass-looking, literally defrauding people out of their money by claiming to be able to find treasure by placing a rock in his hat.
************************************
03. The Mormon Lie
Joseph had actual Golden Plates in his presence that he translated into the Book of Mormon (think of the famous Mormon picture) Ummm it’s a lie…didn’t happen at all like that.
03. The Truth
Joseph buried his head in a hat on his lap with his peep stone enclosed to dictate the Book of Mormon text to his scribe...there were NO Gold Plates anywhere insight.
******************************
04. The Mormon Lie
Joseph lived the Word of Wisdom after it was revealed to him.
04. The Truth
Joseph never lived the Word of Wisdom and more than likely had an alcohol addiction. He even drank the night he was killed in the gun fight.
******************************
05. The Mormon Lie
Joseph was a virtuous, loving and faithful husband to Emma the perfect example of husbandhood and participated reluctantly in polygamy only after having his life threatened by an angel from God
05. The Truth
Joseph lied to Emma, he was involved with polygamous marriages more than 10 years before ever informing Emma. His first affair was with his own house maid 16 year old Fanny Alger.
******************************
06. The Mormon Lie
There are volumes of archeological evidence to support the historicity of the Book of Mormon.
06. The Truth
There is NO archeological evidence to support the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Nothing, nadda.
******************************
07. The Mormon Lie
Native American’s and Polynesians are descendants of an Israelite named Lehi.
07. The Truth
Native Americans descended from North-West Asia; Polynesians descended from South East Asia... not from an Israelite forefather and certainly not from each other.
****************************
08. The Mormon Lie
The “Nauvoo Expositor” was nothing but lies and a public nuisance.
08. The Truth
The “Nauvoo Expositor” was destroyed for actually exposing the truth about Joseph Smith.
******************************
09. The Mormon Lie
Brigham Young only taught Adam-God as a simple theory not as a binding a doctrine.
09. The Truth
Brigham Young DID teach the Adam-God Theory as church doctrine…those that failed to comply were threatened with excommunication for apsotacy.
******************************
10. The Mormon Lie
Joseph was a prophet of God and was not involved with the Occult
10. The Truth
Joseph died with a Jupiter Talisman (an occult symbol) in his pocket while at Carthage
******************************
11. The Mormon Lie
The Book of Abraham is an inspired translation of the papyrus written by the hand of Abraham.
11. The Truth
The Book of Abraham is a fraud. The papyrus is a common Egyptian funeral text it has nothing what-so-ever to do with Abraham.
******************************
12. The Mormon Lie
The various “First Vision” accounts are harmonious and support each other.
12. The Truth
At least four different "First Vision" stories exist either written or narrated by Joseph Smith which are in complete odds with eachother.
******************************
13. The Mormon Lie
Joseph was a moral man.
13. The Truth
One of Joseph Smith's plural wives was a 14 year old girl named Helen Mar Kimball, daughter of Heber C. Kimball and Vilate Kimball.
******************************
14. The Mormon Lie
The Mountain Meadows Massacre was unfortunate incident perpetrated by Indians and men acting on their own.
14. The Truth
Mormons, acting either under local direction or Young's direction, murdered innocent men, woman and children at the Mountain Meadows in southern Utah.
******************************
15. The Mormon Lie
The Temple Endowment was a restoration of temple ordinances lost from Solomon’s Temple of old.
15. The Truth
Joseph Smith plagiarized Masonic Temple ceremonies from the 1700’s into the LDS endowment within weeks of receiving them.
******************************
16. The Mormon Lie
The fact that we haven’t yet found evidence of these animals does not mean that they did not exist.
16. The Truth
There were no horses, sheep cattle, elephants etc in pre-Columbian America despite BoM claims.
******************************
17. The Mormon Lie
God gave Joseph’s father Lehi’s dream to prepare him for the Book of Mormon.
17. The Truth
Joseph Smith, incorporated his father’s 1813 dream into the Book of Mormon and attributed it to Lehi
******************************
18. The Mormon Lie
Joseph prophesied of the coming of the Civil War years prior to it coming
18. The Truth
Joseph articulated current events that any informed person of the day could have lifted from local news papers
************************************
19. The Mormon Lie
Joseph’s scribe, William Clayton, got it wrong in claiming that Joseph had started the translation of the fraudulent Kinderhook plates.
19. The Truth
William Clayton was good enough as a scribe when he wrote down Smith’s “1820 First Vision” claim in 1838 why not when he also detailed Joseph’s so-called first vision?
******************************
And that is just a few of the many lies.
I’ll share more thoughts when I have the time…
Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:07:00 PM
The Blog said...
Cr@ig,
I have read through each and every one of your disputations and couldn't help but feel regret that you have placed so much weight on these points.
I have dedicated much of my life to the study of many philosophies, ideas, opinions as well as LDS doctrine coupled with anti-LDS beliefs.
I am easily able to refute each and every single one of your points. Since my time is limited, I thought it would be just as well to go over even the first one.
"01. The Mormon Lie
God the Father has a body of flesh and bone
01. The Truth
Joseph Smith taught that God the Father was a body of
spirit, not physical, years after the supposed first vision. Why would he do this if he had in fact seen God and left the grove knowing God had a physical body of flesh and bone? See Lectures on Faith once part of the Mormon D&C now removed because it conflicted with other Mormon claims."
I have read the entire Lectures on Faith and have it right here with me. Please give me a reference that says God does not have a body of flesh and bone. I am unable to locate any. Also, the Lectures on Faith was removed from the D&C not because they "conflicted with other Mormon claims" but they were "removed because they are not specific revelations to the Church and were never sustained as such" which the Doctrine and Covenants were. If they conflicted, wouldn't the Church not publish them, and even tell the Saints not to read them? I find on the contrary, "these lectures are of great value and should be studied... I consider them to be of extreme value in the study of the gospel of Jesus Christ."-President Joseph Fielding Smith
After I read your first point, it completely removed any credibility you had.
Your tone is the same as many anti-Mormons. In an effort to discredit the Church, you throw out mixed ideas that you think make a point, but in turn expose your weakness in not only study, but in sound reason.
My friend, I hope you can see through the thick cloud of your own pride and repent of your sins, that you can enjoy the light and happiness you once had, instead of trying to justify your actions in vain.
"When once that light which was in them is taken from them they become as much darkened as they were previously enlightened."
"And thus we can plainly discern, that after a people have been once enlightened by the Spirit of God, and have had great knowledge of things pertaining to righteousness, and then have fallen away into sin and transgression, they become more hardened, and thus their state becomes worse than though they had never known these things."-Alma 24:30
Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:50:00 AM
The Blog Said: I have read through each and every one of your disputations and couldn't help but feel regret that you have placed so much weight on these points.
Cr@ig’s Response: Oh please… save your emotions , I’ve only scratched the surface…as to my points holding weight…they speak for themselves…but hey, I have an open mind…so If I am wrong in any of my conclusions…I’d love to be shown the errors of my ways….can you say the same for yourself? Is Truth more important to you than family, culture, religion, tradition and public image? Would you really dare or care to know the truth? Because until you value truth more than these other things…you will not be in a position to accept Truth.
The Blog Said: I have dedicated much of my life to the study of many philosophies, ideas, opinions as well as LDS doctrine coupled with anti-LDS beliefs.
Cr@ig’s Response: Characterizing information that brings into question Mormon claims as “ANTI” is an emotional-think-stopping-question-quelling-tool often used by cults. The Mormon Church and its apologist like to place anything that brings into question their claims…as “ANTI”. A real truth seeker would not. Neither I nor my blog are ANTI-Mormon….I am PRO-TRUTH. I have a very open mind and will gladly correct any posted thought of mine that can be proven to be in error. Why doesn’t the Mormon Church do the same…if they do in fact treasure truth above all other virtues? But instead they prop up their claims even after they have been completely debunked and shown to be false claims.
The Blog Said: I am easily able to refute each and every single one of your points. {REALLY? Be my guest} Since my time is limited, I thought it would be just as well to go over even the first one.
{Ok Bring it on}
"01. The Mormon Lie
God the Father has a body of flesh and bone
01. The Truth
Joseph Smith taught that God the Father was a body of
spirit, not physical, years after the supposed first vision. Why would he do this if he had in fact seen God and left the grove knowing God had a physical body of flesh and bone? See Lectures on Faith once part of the Mormon D&C now removed because it conflicted with other Mormon claims."
I have read the entire Lectures on Faith and have it right here with me. Please give me a reference that says God does not have a body of flesh and bone. I am unable to locate any.
Cr@ig’s Response: Please give you a reference that says that God does not have a body of flesh and bone? This is a classic Mormon Straw man argument, prove a negative. Of course there is NO reference that states emphatically that God “DOES NOT” have a body of flesh and bone and you know it. Rather we have a onetime canonized scripture/ now uncanonized, emphatically stating that “…The Father being {is} a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fullness: {while} The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, {is} a personage of tabernacle, made, or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man, or, rather, man was formed after his likeness, and in his image.
How much clearer does it have to be for you “Blog”? Joseph Smith is Juxtaposing the spirit comprised personage of God the Father against the flesh and bone composed Jesus Christ. Had it been Smith’s intent to teach that God had a body of flesh and bone in 1834, when he taught the Lectures on Faith, he could have easily done so…After all, you believe he knew this concept when he emerged from the grove in 1820…but the truth is that his concept of God being like man (with flesh and bone) had not evolved to the point that it eventually did in 1843, when he declaired in D&C 130.
So here’s my challenge to you…”IF” as you seem to believe, this concept of God having a body of Flesh and Bone was a commonly taught doctrine before 1843….show me “Any” reference before 1843 where “Any” Mormon Authority taught that God had a body of Flesh and Bone. Take all the time you’d like…. But it’s not there, because prior to 1843…Mormon’s believed and taught that God the Father was a personage of SPIRIT.
Blog, having dedicated {so} much of your life to the study of many philosophies, ideas, opinions as well as LDS doctrine… I’m sure that you are well aware that during the Kirtland period of church history Joseph Smith taught a traditional trinity view of the Godhead. This is well documented and further supported by the original trinity concepts {now removed} from the first editions of the Book of Mormon.
Blog Stated: Also, the Lectures on Faith was removed from the D&C not because they "conflicted with other Mormon claims" but they were "removed because they are not specific revelations to the Church and were never sustained as such" which the Doctrine and Covenants were.
Cr@ig’s Response: Hummm…The Mormon D&C is FULL of Non revelations…in fact you probably are unaware that one of the most quoted and beloved so-called Mormon canonized scriptures was NOT a revelation at all, but a mere personal letter Smith wrote to his wife Emma while incarcerated in Liberty Jail. The love letter parts were edited out and the well written "scripture quality" prose (something Smith was very good at) was added to the D&C as section 121 in 1880. It was NOT a revelation at all…but a well written love letter from a husband under duress to one of his many wives.
So the Fact that the Lectures on Faith were not so-called revelations is Not the reason they were removed…it was because by 1921when they were removed, the concept of God being a personage of "Spirit" had evolved within Mormonism and it conflicted with the then taught view of the godhead being taught by the church in 1921 when it was removed…otherwise all sections that were included in the D&C that were not-so-called-revelations would have been removed as well. But they were not.
Blog States: After I read your first point, it completely removed any credibility you had.
Cr@ig’s Response: Seriously…you need to redefine your definition of “Credibility” I find myself quite credible…since your premise and claims to my stated Mormon Lie on the godhead…has withstood your sad apologetic attempt.
Blog States: Your tone is the same as many anti-Mormons. In an effort to discredit the Church, you throw out mixed ideas that you think make a point, but in turn expose your weakness in not only study, but in sound reason.
Cr@ig’s Response: Blog your use of Mormon think stopping emotional triggers such as “Anti-Mormon” will NOT be tolerated on MY blog. As for discrediting the so-called church with my mixed ideas, weak study and lack of sound reason…I await your reply to my above mentioned Challenge. We'll see just how weak it really is. Good luck! Next time bring your best game...you're not messing with a neophyte.
Blog States: My friend,{we’re NOT friends…but I’m certainly open to meeting with you over a cup ‘O coffee someday} I hope you can see through the thick cloud of your own pride and repent of your sins, that you can enjoy the light and happiness you once had, instead of trying to justify your actions in vain.
Cr@ig’s Response: Get off your sanctimonious ramiumptum “Blog” and open your own eyes to the reality of the false claims of Mormonism… If you really do cherish truth…you will scrutinize and really examine all of Mormonisms truth claims rather than blindly accepting them because they come from your so-called prophetic leaders or some other emotional faith promoting feeling you might have experienced…for as Thomas Edison so wisely stated “…For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope."
And Mormonism is built on a foundation of myths, historical distortions and down-right lies...it cannot be what it claims to be.
Wednesday, November 26, 2008 11:47:00 AM
Wednesday, November 26, 2008
Monday, November 24, 2008
The Consequences of Supporting California's Prop 8
The Mormon Church has no one to blame but its own so-called inspired leaders.
With its support of California’s Proposition 8, the Mormon Church has thrown the largest rock into the tumultuous waters of Same Sex marriage … and appropriately is now reaping the tsunami ripples spinning off from this so-called inspired decision. How could God NOT have seen this coming?
Just like the recent Wall Street Market crash… the crash of the “Mormon Brand”, despite years and years of being propped up by its massive public relations effort, has been laid to waist. A vast majority of surveyed Americans have a negitive view of the Mormon Church.
The TSCC wanted to play with the big boys and is now reaping its reward. Evidently it learned NOTHING from the lessons of its own history. People do not like to be carpet bagged by out of state interests or have a minority impose its own personal interests on the majority. How soon TSCC forgets the political lessons of Kirtland, Missouri and Nauvoo.
I don’t claim to be a prophet in any sense of the word, but I can see where all of this is going…why couldn’t God’s so called anointed leaders?
Here are a few of my predictions:
• Unfortunately, the price of the decision will be paid by TSCC’s members through increased public alienation and marginalization. Its leadership will remain couched away in their Phallic Symbol, the COB.
• I foresee an increase in personal harm and attacks to the public face of Mormonism…its missionary force.
• Mormon conversion rates in California will nose-dive.
• All Mormon public buildings, such as churches and temples, will become targets of vandalism and public protests on a regular basis.
• Publically announced visits of Mormon GA’s to California will virtually disappear.
• Individual Mormon members in California will pay the heaviest price being subjected to individual acts of vandalism personally directed at their personal property…such as gratify to their homes and businesses.
• The children of the Mormon faithful in California will be subjected to public ridicule and taunts of bigotry while attending their public schools. Some may even have to be pulled from public schools. Declaring one’s self Mormon, will become even more embarrassing and painful.
• There will be an increase in membership resignations from California members.
• California wards, already divided over this issue, will see a decrease in membership attendance and tithing payments, creating its own ripple effect.
• Evangelical coalition members, who joined the Mormon Church in defense of Marriage, will abandon the Mormon Church (whom they view as a cult) and hang them out to dry.
• Mormon GA’s WILL be subjected to a “Cream Pie in the Face Incident”
• Either a Pro-Gay Marriage Prop will eventually pass or the California Supreme court will over turn Prop 8, but next time the Mormon Church will take a less active roll…having paid such a heavy price to its so coveted public image, tithing payments and membership numbers.
• Same Sex Marriage will eventually become Law in some form in California at some time in the future and all of the Mormon’s Churches efforts will have been for naught. If I can see this coming...why couldn't God's so-called anointed?
Isn’t it Wonderful…Isn’t it Marvelous…
I should note that I do not personally advocate vandalism, violence or bodily hard to anything or any person associated with the Mormon Church…I am merely stating the obvious consequences of the Mormon Church’s decision to interject itself into California’s Political arena.
With its support of California’s Proposition 8, the Mormon Church has thrown the largest rock into the tumultuous waters of Same Sex marriage … and appropriately is now reaping the tsunami ripples spinning off from this so-called inspired decision. How could God NOT have seen this coming?
Just like the recent Wall Street Market crash… the crash of the “Mormon Brand”, despite years and years of being propped up by its massive public relations effort, has been laid to waist. A vast majority of surveyed Americans have a negitive view of the Mormon Church.
The TSCC wanted to play with the big boys and is now reaping its reward. Evidently it learned NOTHING from the lessons of its own history. People do not like to be carpet bagged by out of state interests or have a minority impose its own personal interests on the majority. How soon TSCC forgets the political lessons of Kirtland, Missouri and Nauvoo.
I don’t claim to be a prophet in any sense of the word, but I can see where all of this is going…why couldn’t God’s so called anointed leaders?
Here are a few of my predictions:
• Unfortunately, the price of the decision will be paid by TSCC’s members through increased public alienation and marginalization. Its leadership will remain couched away in their Phallic Symbol, the COB.
• I foresee an increase in personal harm and attacks to the public face of Mormonism…its missionary force.
• Mormon conversion rates in California will nose-dive.
• All Mormon public buildings, such as churches and temples, will become targets of vandalism and public protests on a regular basis.
• Publically announced visits of Mormon GA’s to California will virtually disappear.
• Individual Mormon members in California will pay the heaviest price being subjected to individual acts of vandalism personally directed at their personal property…such as gratify to their homes and businesses.
• The children of the Mormon faithful in California will be subjected to public ridicule and taunts of bigotry while attending their public schools. Some may even have to be pulled from public schools. Declaring one’s self Mormon, will become even more embarrassing and painful.
• There will be an increase in membership resignations from California members.
• California wards, already divided over this issue, will see a decrease in membership attendance and tithing payments, creating its own ripple effect.
• Evangelical coalition members, who joined the Mormon Church in defense of Marriage, will abandon the Mormon Church (whom they view as a cult) and hang them out to dry.
• Mormon GA’s WILL be subjected to a “Cream Pie in the Face Incident”
• Either a Pro-Gay Marriage Prop will eventually pass or the California Supreme court will over turn Prop 8, but next time the Mormon Church will take a less active roll…having paid such a heavy price to its so coveted public image, tithing payments and membership numbers.
• Same Sex Marriage will eventually become Law in some form in California at some time in the future and all of the Mormon’s Churches efforts will have been for naught. If I can see this coming...why couldn't God's so-called anointed?
Isn’t it Wonderful…Isn’t it Marvelous…
I should note that I do not personally advocate vandalism, violence or bodily hard to anything or any person associated with the Mormon Church…I am merely stating the obvious consequences of the Mormon Church’s decision to interject itself into California’s Political arena.
Tuesday, September 02, 2008
“Acquiring Knowledge…The Mormon Way”
According to Mormon scripture found in the Book of Mormon …
“faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith you hope for things which are not seen, which are true.”
Note the qualifying statement…Faith is a hope in things that eventually turn out to be true. Or in other words…faith fills the gap between ignorance and knowledge.
But does the Mormon method lead to truthful knowledge?
The B of M goes on to state…” concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge…”
So the B of M states that “Faith” in not perfect…it is flawed.
According to this scripture, to make your faith “flawless” you must exercise a little test.
You must... “awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment… and exercise a particle of [that flawed] faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of [the Mormon truth claim].”
So you must want to believe and let this desire to believe work up in you…until you start to believe…based on information and facts? NO! Based only on your desire to believe. Here in lies the problem...
Is this Mormon methodology trustworthy? Is this a “sure-fire” method of acquiring knowledge and truth? Can this Mormon method fill the gap between ignorance and knowledge?
Thomas Edison offered this alternative…” faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope."
When you exercise faith there has to be the assumption that your faith will ultimately be rewarded with a future confirmation that your faith was not misplaced.
But the Mormon God has stated that if we merely place faith in the words of an individual…and experiment on their words and exercise faith in them…that we can gain knowledge in this manner. But does this make any sense? What if that faith is misplaced? What if we are placing faith in a scam artist or a fraud? How many snake oil salesmen or pyramid scheme promotors have said…”just buy my special elixir or trust me...then you’ll “know” for a surety that I speak the truth…trust me…experiment on my words” Isn’t this really how all scams and fraudulent schemes are run…on a misplaced leap of faith?
Then the B of M goes on to state how to fill the gap between ignorance and knowledge…the Mormon way…
“Now behold, [If you want to believe and let this desire to believe work up in you…until you start to believe] would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; [and I say hell yes, but is this method trustworthy and failsafe…Hell NO!!] nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.
But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.
And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect [well according to Mormonism it is] in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, [so if you want a thing to be true hard enough…poof…according to Mormonism …it is] for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.”
In other words…your faith has been replaced with Knowledge and faith is no longer needed in that thing which you have experimented on….but is it really? Is this a sure way to replace faith with knowledge?
“Faith is a belief in the absence of evidence, not in a *contradiction* to evidence. And I might add….faith can not make a truth false or a falsehood true…it can not change a fact. No matter how much faith I might exercise that Ireland is an arid desert sand filled void…it just won’t ever become a truth no matter how much faith I exercise…because it is NOT built on a foundation of fact or reality and no matter how much faith I exercise that Mormonism is all it claims to be...it just won't happen because Mormonism is built on a foundation of lies.
The only exercise of faith that will result in the reward of knowledge…is the faith that is built on a foundation of facts…facts that can be tested, scrutinized and subjected to rigorous examination…
The Mormon knowledge quest does not pass this test…and thus fails to qualify as a reliable method to discover knowledge and ultimately truth.
“faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith you hope for things which are not seen, which are true.”
Note the qualifying statement…Faith is a hope in things that eventually turn out to be true. Or in other words…faith fills the gap between ignorance and knowledge.
But does the Mormon method lead to truthful knowledge?
The B of M goes on to state…” concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge…”
So the B of M states that “Faith” in not perfect…it is flawed.
According to this scripture, to make your faith “flawless” you must exercise a little test.
You must... “awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment… and exercise a particle of [that flawed] faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of [the Mormon truth claim].”
So you must want to believe and let this desire to believe work up in you…until you start to believe…based on information and facts? NO! Based only on your desire to believe. Here in lies the problem...
Is this Mormon methodology trustworthy? Is this a “sure-fire” method of acquiring knowledge and truth? Can this Mormon method fill the gap between ignorance and knowledge?
Thomas Edison offered this alternative…” faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope."
When you exercise faith there has to be the assumption that your faith will ultimately be rewarded with a future confirmation that your faith was not misplaced.
But the Mormon God has stated that if we merely place faith in the words of an individual…and experiment on their words and exercise faith in them…that we can gain knowledge in this manner. But does this make any sense? What if that faith is misplaced? What if we are placing faith in a scam artist or a fraud? How many snake oil salesmen or pyramid scheme promotors have said…”just buy my special elixir or trust me...then you’ll “know” for a surety that I speak the truth…trust me…experiment on my words” Isn’t this really how all scams and fraudulent schemes are run…on a misplaced leap of faith?
Then the B of M goes on to state how to fill the gap between ignorance and knowledge…the Mormon way…
“Now behold, [If you want to believe and let this desire to believe work up in you…until you start to believe] would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; [and I say hell yes, but is this method trustworthy and failsafe…Hell NO!!] nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.
But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.
And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect [well according to Mormonism it is] in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, [so if you want a thing to be true hard enough…poof…according to Mormonism …it is] for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.”
In other words…your faith has been replaced with Knowledge and faith is no longer needed in that thing which you have experimented on….but is it really? Is this a sure way to replace faith with knowledge?
“Faith is a belief in the absence of evidence, not in a *contradiction* to evidence. And I might add….faith can not make a truth false or a falsehood true…it can not change a fact. No matter how much faith I might exercise that Ireland is an arid desert sand filled void…it just won’t ever become a truth no matter how much faith I exercise…because it is NOT built on a foundation of fact or reality and no matter how much faith I exercise that Mormonism is all it claims to be...it just won't happen because Mormonism is built on a foundation of lies.
The only exercise of faith that will result in the reward of knowledge…is the faith that is built on a foundation of facts…facts that can be tested, scrutinized and subjected to rigorous examination…
The Mormon knowledge quest does not pass this test…and thus fails to qualify as a reliable method to discover knowledge and ultimately truth.
Tuesday, August 05, 2008
Mormonism's Squishie use of "TRUTH"
What is Truth?
I posted on this subject back in June of this year...but wanted to add some more comments.
When I was an active believing Mormon, One of my all time favorite church hymn’s was the hymn, “Oh Say What is Truth.”
Oh say, what is truth? 'Tis the fairest gem
That the riches of worlds can produce,
And priceless the value of truth will be when
The proud monarch's costliest diadem
Is counted but dross and refuse.
Yes, say, what is truth? 'Tis the brightest prize
To which mortals or Gods can aspire;
Go search in the depths where it glittering lies
Or ascend in pursuit to the loftiest skies.
'Tis an aim for the noblest desire.
The sceptre may fall from the despot's grasp
When with winds of stern justice he copes,
But the pillar of truth will endure to the last,
And its firm-rooted bulwarks outstand the rude blast,
And the wreck of the fell tyrant's hopes.
Then say, what is truth? 'Tis the last and the first,
For the limits of time it steps o'er.
Though the heavens depart and the earth's fountains burst,
Truth, the sum of existence, will weather the worst,
Eternal, unchanged, evermore.
I have always placed a high value on being truthful and on the principle of Truth. My favorite stanza’s from this hymn are “But the pillar of truth will endure to the last” and “Though the heavens depart and the earth's fountains burst, Truth, the sum of existence, will weather the worst, Eternal, unchanged, evermore”
Truth is eternal and unchanging. Truth does not give into public pressure or bow to the whims of man. If something is true, it is absolute, fixed and complete. Truth does not need to be tampered with, edited or changed to accommodate evolving human conditions or perceptions.
The funny thing is that I earned my love of Truth from my Mormon upbringing…but it was also because I love truth that I could not return to Mormonism following my excommunication. My appreciation for truth would not allow me to compromise and accept something that I firmly believed was based on a fraud and built on a foundation of lies.
Joseph Fielding Smith (President of LDS Church in the early 1970's) stated:
"Mormonism must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a Prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead people, then he should be exposed, his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false..." ("Doctrines of Salvation," vol. 1 pp 188-189.)
Orson Pratt, an early leader in Mormonism added:
" 'The Book of Mormon' must be either true or false. If true, it is one of the most important messages ever sent from God... If false, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laid impositions ever palmed upon the world, calculated to deceive and ruin millions... The nature of the "Book of Mormon" is such, that if true, no one can possibly be saved and reject it; If false, no one can possibly be saved and receive it... If, after a rigid examination, it be found imposition, it should be extensively published to the world as such; the evidences and arguments on which the imposture was detected, should be clearly and logically stated, that those who have been sincerely yet unfortunately deceived, may perceive the nature of deception, and to be reclaimed, and that those who continue to publish the delusion may be exposed and silenced... by strong and powerful arguments - by evidences adduced from scripture and reason..." (Orson Pratt's Works, "Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon": Liverpool, 1851, pp. 1, 2.)
I couldn’t agree more with these esteemed LDS leaders…Mormonism is either what it claims to be or it is a fraud which should be exposed for what it really is.
Bottom Line Mormon’s leaders have taught in their weekly Sunday lesson manuals a version of Mormonism that is a complete myth based on the church they want to exist rather than the one that actually does exist. They put forth a faithful history to promote belief in Mormonism’s claims…they do this knowing that if they told the truth…faith would NOT be promoted, in fact some have even gone so far as to admit that if Mormonism was taught in a truthful manner it would destroy belief.
I once asked a church apologist why the church isn't honest about it's foundational history and claims. He responded by saying..."Oh Cr@ig, don't be silly, if the church was honest...NO one would join the church." Hmmmm.... but at least he was telling the truth. I only wish Mormon's leaders could value truth as much as they claim to.
In one of my favorite quotes Thomas Edison stated: For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope."
Any religion that MUST rely on LIES to build faith and belief in its claims can NOT be what it claims to be and is nothing more than a false hope.
I posted on this subject back in June of this year...but wanted to add some more comments.
When I was an active believing Mormon, One of my all time favorite church hymn’s was the hymn, “Oh Say What is Truth.”
That the riches of worlds can produce,
And priceless the value of truth will be when
The proud monarch's costliest diadem
Is counted but dross and refuse.
Yes, say, what is truth? 'Tis the brightest prize
To which mortals or Gods can aspire;
Go search in the depths where it glittering lies
Or ascend in pursuit to the loftiest skies.
'Tis an aim for the noblest desire.
The sceptre may fall from the despot's grasp
When with winds of stern justice he copes,
But the pillar of truth will endure to the last,
And its firm-rooted bulwarks outstand the rude blast,
And the wreck of the fell tyrant's hopes.
Then say, what is truth? 'Tis the last and the first,
For the limits of time it steps o'er.
Though the heavens depart and the earth's fountains burst,
Truth, the sum of existence, will weather the worst,
Eternal, unchanged, evermore.
I have always placed a high value on being truthful and on the principle of Truth. My favorite stanza’s from this hymn are “But the pillar of truth will endure to the last” and “Though the heavens depart and the earth's fountains burst, Truth, the sum of existence, will weather the worst, Eternal, unchanged, evermore”
Truth is eternal and unchanging. Truth does not give into public pressure or bow to the whims of man. If something is true, it is absolute, fixed and complete. Truth does not need to be tampered with, edited or changed to accommodate evolving human conditions or perceptions.
The funny thing is that I earned my love of Truth from my Mormon upbringing…but it was also because I love truth that I could not return to Mormonism following my excommunication. My appreciation for truth would not allow me to compromise and accept something that I firmly believed was based on a fraud and built on a foundation of lies.
Joseph Fielding Smith (President of LDS Church in the early 1970's) stated:
"Mormonism must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a Prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead people, then he should be exposed, his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false..." ("Doctrines of Salvation," vol. 1 pp 188-189.)
Orson Pratt, an early leader in Mormonism added:
" 'The Book of Mormon' must be either true or false. If true, it is one of the most important messages ever sent from God... If false, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laid impositions ever palmed upon the world, calculated to deceive and ruin millions... The nature of the "Book of Mormon" is such, that if true, no one can possibly be saved and reject it; If false, no one can possibly be saved and receive it... If, after a rigid examination, it be found imposition, it should be extensively published to the world as such; the evidences and arguments on which the imposture was detected, should be clearly and logically stated, that those who have been sincerely yet unfortunately deceived, may perceive the nature of deception, and to be reclaimed, and that those who continue to publish the delusion may be exposed and silenced... by strong and powerful arguments - by evidences adduced from scripture and reason..." (Orson Pratt's Works, "Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon": Liverpool, 1851, pp. 1, 2.)
I couldn’t agree more with these esteemed LDS leaders…Mormonism is either what it claims to be or it is a fraud which should be exposed for what it really is.
Bottom Line Mormon’s leaders have taught in their weekly Sunday lesson manuals a version of Mormonism that is a complete myth based on the church they want to exist rather than the one that actually does exist. They put forth a faithful history to promote belief in Mormonism’s claims…they do this knowing that if they told the truth…faith would NOT be promoted, in fact some have even gone so far as to admit that if Mormonism was taught in a truthful manner it would destroy belief.
I once asked a church apologist why the church isn't honest about it's foundational history and claims. He responded by saying..."Oh Cr@ig, don't be silly, if the church was honest...NO one would join the church." Hmmmm.... but at least he was telling the truth. I only wish Mormon's leaders could value truth as much as they claim to.
In one of my favorite quotes Thomas Edison stated: For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope."
Any religion that MUST rely on LIES to build faith and belief in its claims can NOT be what it claims to be and is nothing more than a false hope.
Monday, July 28, 2008
Why I was Excommunicated
Due to several inquiries asking that I explain the reasons that led to my excommunication, I thought I would make as forthright a confession as possible of all the reasons that led to me being excommunicated from the Mormon Church.
Strike 1:
I was raised in a family of con-men. My grandfather had run various con’s and had involved my father in his schemes as well. These weren’t your typical low level schemes…but full blown frauds with the clear intent to de-fraud other people out of their hard earned money. It’s been said that a sucker is born everyday…I can personally give testimony to the truth of this statement. We were never at a loss of a “mark” to take advantage of. I was brought into the “family business” at a young age…but continued my involvement as a young adult. I entered this family activity with my own mother’s knowledge and blessing.
Despite coming from a very active believing Mormon family, we somehow justified taking money from stupid people … and boy were we good at it. We plied our art on the greedy and gullible people in our community...they deserved it.
As a young man I soon became the instrument through which most of our cons were run. My father would set the stage for me to run my con. We took advantage of what all good con men know to be true… at their core, most people are greedy. We would take advantage of unsuspecting people's greed.
So here is how we set up our cons:
My father got unsuspecting gullible rich people to believe that I had the ability to actually see through solid objects. I know it sounds crazy, but he was very good and remember these “marks” were greedy. The “marks paid us large amounts of money for my ability to find them even more money that we had convinced them lay buried in their back yards.
To demonstrate my abilities my father would bury an object such as a feather in the yard of the “mark“several days in advance. Then we would offer a demonstration of my abilities to find hidden objects to our prospective clients. Knowing exactly where my father had buried the feather, I would use my super human abilities to see through solid objects to find the buried feather… this demonstration usually caused our marks to part with their money since they now had confidence in my abilities.
We tried this con once too often in my neighborhood and finally someone ratted me out. Word soon spread that I really didn’t have super human powers nor the ability to see through solid objects..."Gee Really?" and I had to turn to other ways to make money.
Strike 2:
Ok I’m a horny guy I admit it.
Not many years after I got married, I admit it, I did have a full blown affair…but bare with me…I was justified...
My wife had hired a local neighborhood school-aged girl to help with our household cleaning. She was 16 years old and a real hottie. I knew I was going to be in trouble the moment I laid eyes on her. I fantasized about her continuously. The way she swept and mopped our house...I mean seriously who could fault me. Now I must admit that I have a thing for women of any ages, but young girls really turned my crank. Any way to make a long story short…I was finally able to get our house keeper to succumb to my sexual designs. My little affair would have gone off without a hitch except my wife caught us one night while I was pounding the maid out back in our shed.
After this I continuously lied to my wife and told her that my affair was over and that I had learned my lesson…but it was all a lie. My love of women was insatiable. I think in all, by the time my church court came around, I had slept with about 33 women. Some of the girls I had sex with were as young as 14, some were married at the time and still others where older married woman…hell at the time I didn’t care, If it had a vagina, I wanted to pound it. With each successive conquest I became more bold. I took it as a challenge to bed whomever I wanted. Some of my best sex was with the wives of some of my best friends. Looking back, I still can't believe these happily married women fell for my pick up lines. It all fed my ego. All I wanted was to get laid… I knew I was out of control…but sex had become my life. Fortunately for me, I was able to convince my wife that I just had more love in me than she could provide. Sly dog huh. I was able to convince my wife that I would ONLY sleep with women to which she had given her approval {another lie}. This seemed to work for a while until some of the married women I had slept with started feeling all guilty and told their husbands. Word soon leaked out regarding my activities. Then the members of our neighborhood started the famed Mormon rumor mill...and I was finally outed.
Strike 3:
I think the final straw that led to my church court, as if my fraudulent activities and my multiple affairs weren't enough, the thing that finally broke the camel’s back…and left the church with no alternative but to excommunicate me was ultimately my pride.
I'm a proud man and I loved to boast about myself. I loved to tell other people about how great I am and at first meeting most people actually agree with me. But I now know that all this boasting get's old and eventually people don’t like it.
Yes, I know it was my pride that made me think I could pull off all the other things. I became delusional and even started to claim that I was second in greatness to only Jesus Christ himself. And I don’t think those involved in my church court saw any humor in me crowning myself “King of the World” either.
Bottom Line: I deserved to be Excommunicated...as would any person who did the kinds of dastardly things that I did. People would be "CRAZY" to believe ANY thing I might claim if they were aware of my entire personal history.
I hope this personal confession of the major sins that led to my church court will help quell further questions regarding why I was excommunicated. You see...I deserved it.
Strike 1:
I was raised in a family of con-men. My grandfather had run various con’s and had involved my father in his schemes as well. These weren’t your typical low level schemes…but full blown frauds with the clear intent to de-fraud other people out of their hard earned money. It’s been said that a sucker is born everyday…I can personally give testimony to the truth of this statement. We were never at a loss of a “mark” to take advantage of. I was brought into the “family business” at a young age…but continued my involvement as a young adult. I entered this family activity with my own mother’s knowledge and blessing.
Despite coming from a very active believing Mormon family, we somehow justified taking money from stupid people … and boy were we good at it. We plied our art on the greedy and gullible people in our community...they deserved it.
As a young man I soon became the instrument through which most of our cons were run. My father would set the stage for me to run my con. We took advantage of what all good con men know to be true… at their core, most people are greedy. We would take advantage of unsuspecting people's greed.
So here is how we set up our cons:
My father got unsuspecting gullible rich people to believe that I had the ability to actually see through solid objects. I know it sounds crazy, but he was very good and remember these “marks” were greedy. The “marks paid us large amounts of money for my ability to find them even more money that we had convinced them lay buried in their back yards.
To demonstrate my abilities my father would bury an object such as a feather in the yard of the “mark“several days in advance. Then we would offer a demonstration of my abilities to find hidden objects to our prospective clients. Knowing exactly where my father had buried the feather, I would use my super human abilities to see through solid objects to find the buried feather… this demonstration usually caused our marks to part with their money since they now had confidence in my abilities.
We tried this con once too often in my neighborhood and finally someone ratted me out. Word soon spread that I really didn’t have super human powers nor the ability to see through solid objects..."Gee Really?" and I had to turn to other ways to make money.
Strike 2:
Ok I’m a horny guy I admit it.
Not many years after I got married, I admit it, I did have a full blown affair…but bare with me…I was justified...
My wife had hired a local neighborhood school-aged girl to help with our household cleaning. She was 16 years old and a real hottie. I knew I was going to be in trouble the moment I laid eyes on her. I fantasized about her continuously. The way she swept and mopped our house...I mean seriously who could fault me. Now I must admit that I have a thing for women of any ages, but young girls really turned my crank. Any way to make a long story short…I was finally able to get our house keeper to succumb to my sexual designs. My little affair would have gone off without a hitch except my wife caught us one night while I was pounding the maid out back in our shed.
After this I continuously lied to my wife and told her that my affair was over and that I had learned my lesson…but it was all a lie. My love of women was insatiable. I think in all, by the time my church court came around, I had slept with about 33 women. Some of the girls I had sex with were as young as 14, some were married at the time and still others where older married woman…hell at the time I didn’t care, If it had a vagina, I wanted to pound it. With each successive conquest I became more bold. I took it as a challenge to bed whomever I wanted. Some of my best sex was with the wives of some of my best friends. Looking back, I still can't believe these happily married women fell for my pick up lines. It all fed my ego. All I wanted was to get laid… I knew I was out of control…but sex had become my life. Fortunately for me, I was able to convince my wife that I just had more love in me than she could provide. Sly dog huh. I was able to convince my wife that I would ONLY sleep with women to which she had given her approval {another lie}. This seemed to work for a while until some of the married women I had slept with started feeling all guilty and told their husbands. Word soon leaked out regarding my activities. Then the members of our neighborhood started the famed Mormon rumor mill...and I was finally outed.
Strike 3:
I think the final straw that led to my church court, as if my fraudulent activities and my multiple affairs weren't enough, the thing that finally broke the camel’s back…and left the church with no alternative but to excommunicate me was ultimately my pride.
I'm a proud man and I loved to boast about myself. I loved to tell other people about how great I am and at first meeting most people actually agree with me. But I now know that all this boasting get's old and eventually people don’t like it.
Yes, I know it was my pride that made me think I could pull off all the other things. I became delusional and even started to claim that I was second in greatness to only Jesus Christ himself. And I don’t think those involved in my church court saw any humor in me crowning myself “King of the World” either.
Bottom Line: I deserved to be Excommunicated...as would any person who did the kinds of dastardly things that I did. People would be "CRAZY" to believe ANY thing I might claim if they were aware of my entire personal history.
I hope this personal confession of the major sins that led to my church court will help quell further questions regarding why I was excommunicated. You see...I deserved it.
Tuesday, July 22, 2008
A Short List of Some of the Things I would have to Believe in to Accept Mormonism Again
A recent anonymous poster sugggested that I would someday return to the religion of my birth...I disagree...but it made me think of some of the things I would have to believe to again return...this is a start to the list of things I would have to believe. (I will be adding more items to this list from time to time, as I have the time)
1. That God actually exists, I see no evidence of this. (he never helped me find my car keys I guess)
2. That this non-existing God created our earth, heavens, solar system, universe {again there are better, more logical explanations for how our universe came into existence excluding a God figure}
3. That God created Adam and Eve…the "FIRST" earthly humans.
4. That Adam and Eve, according to Mormon doctrine, exited the Garden of Eden, which was in Missouri, 6,000 years ago, after the Fall. That with the Fall, physical and spiritual death entered the earthly realm for the very first time. This is where the wheels of belief already start to fall off. The evidence so overwhelmingly supports the existence of man on earth for 100’s of thousands of years and death has been a constant part of earthly existence since life began, literally millions and millions of years ago. Only in Mormonism’s “reality suspension” was there no death prior to 6,000 years ago.
5. I would have to believe that the earth is 6,000 years old as stated in Mormon scripture D&C 77, something that I just find totally unbelievable based on all of the examinable evidence to the contrary.
6. That God lives on some actual planet near some planet called Kolob which shares its light with our sun. Now the interesting thing is that the word “Kolob” comes from the Book of Abraham, a book that has been so summarily debunked and proven to any thinking person, to be a fraud…that to again be able to believe in Kolob I’d have to believe in the Book of Abraham.
7. So let me address the Book of Abraham. It claims to be a translation of an Egyptian papyri written by Abraham, in his own hand. (see title page) The book is clearly NOT what it claims to be. Only in Mormonism’s twisted convoluted world, where actual truth and reality don’t matter can the BoA be real. So to believe in the BoA, I can’t believe in it for what it claims to be…but I must make some huge mental gymnastic leap and view the papyri as something it never claims to be…”a mystical revelation channeling device” through which Joseph Smith decoded some secret code, only he could see, imbedded within the papyri. But the evidence doesn’t support this. Joseph claimed to translate the papyri, he even took characters from the papyri and wrote their so-called translations in long hand. Clearly he wanted his audience to think he was making an actual translation of the papyri script. Bottom line, the Book of Abraham is a poorly crafted fraud which I would have to suspend reality in order to regain a belief in.
8. I would also have to believe in the Book of Mormon and believe it is what it claims to be. So let me examine what it claims to be.
A. a translation of a never discovered language
B. a religious history of a bronze-aged civilization living among a stone aged civilization with NO transference of their bronze aged technology.
C. A middle eastern Jewish people that left NO DNA footprint.
D. A people with horses, cows, camels, elephants, goats, yet were able to remove all evidence of their existence.
E. A people that were proficient in the working of metals such as gold, silver, steel, etc yet were able to remove all evidences of excavations, mines pits forges and all other sign of this technology.
F. A people who didn’t eat any of the known fruits and vegetables in the America’s such as the sweet potato, corn/maze…yet ate fruits such as figs, grapes whose pre Columbian existence has NEVER been found.
G. Basically the Book of Mormon describes a bronze aged civilization that thrived in the America’s yet left not one trace of their existence.
9. I would have to believe that the man Joseph Smith who claimed to see the physical God the Father and Jesus Christ couldn't get the details of his story right with each retelling of this fanciful story. (not something one would do if the story was actually true) In fact with each retelling the story only became more glorious and spectacular. I would also have to beleive that this same Joseph, who saw them in their physical bodies would within 10 years teach that God had no physical body and was merely a spirt...THEN...change his story again and claim that No God actually had a physical body. Joseph's godhead in reality...evolved throughout the years.
10. I would need to believe that God would command Joseph to use a stone Joseph had dug up while digging a well, to help in the translation process for the Book of Mormon. That God would instruct Joseph to use this same rock that Joseph had knowingly used to defraud people out of their money in his treasure digging scam. That God would instruct Joseph to place this same stone used in Joseph’s fraud in his hat and by putting his face in the hat with the stone he could also translate golden plates that were given to him by an angel named Moroni.
11. I would also need to believe that Joseph could translate these Golden Plates without the plates actually being present in front of Joseph…as he claimed that sometimes he would place them in a tree truck out in the woods and still be able to translate.
12. I would need to believe that this translation, from God’s mouth to Joseph’s ear via the peep stone, was so perfect that it only required a couple of thousand corrections after God had given Joseph Smith a word for word dictation on special parchment that would appear in his magical hat and then disappear once the correctness had been confirmed.
13. Perhaps the most difficult thing, regarding the translation of the Book of Mormon, I would have to again believe in to be a faithful believing Mormon...is the Official whitewashed translation story...which is actually a bunch of unbelievable bunk and lies...taught as the church had wanted this foundational story to have happened rather than how it actually did happen.
14. I would have to believe in a literal flood and a literal Noah of which even God’s so-called late-prophet believes when he declared…“There was the great Flood, when waters covered the earth and when, as Peter says, only ‘eight souls were saved’” – Gordon B. Hinckley, If We Are Prepared Ye Shall Not Fear, 175th Annual General Priesthood Meeting.
But was there really a great flood that resulted in only 8 surviving humans as declared by God's so-called prophet? If not, it significantly discredits Christianity in general and Mormonism specifically. Perhaps the greatest arguments against the traditional Mormon view of the universal flood, which supposedly baptized the earth, a doctrine proclaimed by Mormon’s so-called prophets, can be found HERE This article ironically written by two BYU Professors…pretty much sums up the impossibility of Mormonism’s traditional flood doctrine and why I find it impossible to reconcile it with reality.
To be continued…
1. That God actually exists, I see no evidence of this. (he never helped me find my car keys I guess)
2. That this non-existing God created our earth, heavens, solar system, universe {again there are better, more logical explanations for how our universe came into existence excluding a God figure}
3. That God created Adam and Eve…the "FIRST" earthly humans.
4. That Adam and Eve, according to Mormon doctrine, exited the Garden of Eden, which was in Missouri, 6,000 years ago, after the Fall. That with the Fall, physical and spiritual death entered the earthly realm for the very first time. This is where the wheels of belief already start to fall off. The evidence so overwhelmingly supports the existence of man on earth for 100’s of thousands of years and death has been a constant part of earthly existence since life began, literally millions and millions of years ago. Only in Mormonism’s “reality suspension” was there no death prior to 6,000 years ago.
5. I would have to believe that the earth is 6,000 years old as stated in Mormon scripture D&C 77, something that I just find totally unbelievable based on all of the examinable evidence to the contrary.
6. That God lives on some actual planet near some planet called Kolob which shares its light with our sun. Now the interesting thing is that the word “Kolob” comes from the Book of Abraham, a book that has been so summarily debunked and proven to any thinking person, to be a fraud…that to again be able to believe in Kolob I’d have to believe in the Book of Abraham.
7. So let me address the Book of Abraham. It claims to be a translation of an Egyptian papyri written by Abraham, in his own hand. (see title page) The book is clearly NOT what it claims to be. Only in Mormonism’s twisted convoluted world, where actual truth and reality don’t matter can the BoA be real. So to believe in the BoA, I can’t believe in it for what it claims to be…but I must make some huge mental gymnastic leap and view the papyri as something it never claims to be…”a mystical revelation channeling device” through which Joseph Smith decoded some secret code, only he could see, imbedded within the papyri. But the evidence doesn’t support this. Joseph claimed to translate the papyri, he even took characters from the papyri and wrote their so-called translations in long hand. Clearly he wanted his audience to think he was making an actual translation of the papyri script. Bottom line, the Book of Abraham is a poorly crafted fraud which I would have to suspend reality in order to regain a belief in.
8. I would also have to believe in the Book of Mormon and believe it is what it claims to be. So let me examine what it claims to be.
A. a translation of a never discovered language
B. a religious history of a bronze-aged civilization living among a stone aged civilization with NO transference of their bronze aged technology.
C. A middle eastern Jewish people that left NO DNA footprint.
D. A people with horses, cows, camels, elephants, goats, yet were able to remove all evidence of their existence.
E. A people that were proficient in the working of metals such as gold, silver, steel, etc yet were able to remove all evidences of excavations, mines pits forges and all other sign of this technology.
F. A people who didn’t eat any of the known fruits and vegetables in the America’s such as the sweet potato, corn/maze…yet ate fruits such as figs, grapes whose pre Columbian existence has NEVER been found.
G. Basically the Book of Mormon describes a bronze aged civilization that thrived in the America’s yet left not one trace of their existence.
9. I would have to believe that the man Joseph Smith who claimed to see the physical God the Father and Jesus Christ couldn't get the details of his story right with each retelling of this fanciful story. (not something one would do if the story was actually true) In fact with each retelling the story only became more glorious and spectacular. I would also have to beleive that this same Joseph, who saw them in their physical bodies would within 10 years teach that God had no physical body and was merely a spirt...THEN...change his story again and claim that No God actually had a physical body. Joseph's godhead in reality...evolved throughout the years.
10. I would need to believe that God would command Joseph to use a stone Joseph had dug up while digging a well, to help in the translation process for the Book of Mormon. That God would instruct Joseph to use this same rock that Joseph had knowingly used to defraud people out of their money in his treasure digging scam. That God would instruct Joseph to place this same stone used in Joseph’s fraud in his hat and by putting his face in the hat with the stone he could also translate golden plates that were given to him by an angel named Moroni.
11. I would also need to believe that Joseph could translate these Golden Plates without the plates actually being present in front of Joseph…as he claimed that sometimes he would place them in a tree truck out in the woods and still be able to translate.
12. I would need to believe that this translation, from God’s mouth to Joseph’s ear via the peep stone, was so perfect that it only required a couple of thousand corrections after God had given Joseph Smith a word for word dictation on special parchment that would appear in his magical hat and then disappear once the correctness had been confirmed.
13. Perhaps the most difficult thing, regarding the translation of the Book of Mormon, I would have to again believe in to be a faithful believing Mormon...is the Official whitewashed translation story...which is actually a bunch of unbelievable bunk and lies...taught as the church had wanted this foundational story to have happened rather than how it actually did happen.
14. I would have to believe in a literal flood and a literal Noah of which even God’s so-called late-prophet believes when he declared…“There was the great Flood, when waters covered the earth and when, as Peter says, only ‘eight souls were saved’” – Gordon B. Hinckley, If We Are Prepared Ye Shall Not Fear, 175th Annual General Priesthood Meeting.
But was there really a great flood that resulted in only 8 surviving humans as declared by God's so-called prophet? If not, it significantly discredits Christianity in general and Mormonism specifically. Perhaps the greatest arguments against the traditional Mormon view of the universal flood, which supposedly baptized the earth, a doctrine proclaimed by Mormon’s so-called prophets, can be found HERE This article ironically written by two BYU Professors…pretty much sums up the impossibility of Mormonism’s traditional flood doctrine and why I find it impossible to reconcile it with reality.
To be continued…
Thursday, July 10, 2008
Be Ye Therefore Perfect...
And with these words, Mormon’s are reminded that they will NEVER measure up or be good enough….because here’s a little secret…NO HUMAN WILL EVER BE PERFECT. Striving for perfection is a mission in futility and frustration…
As a member of the High Council with the assignment of speaking to my assigned ward on the subject of being perfect, I asked those in the congregation the following question. “By the raise of hands, who here feels that they will inherent the Celestial Kingdom?’ To my utter shock, out of a congregation numbering about 350, only a small smattering of 6-8 hands went up. This Wasatch front ward, full of active Mormon’s…most of whom paid a full tithe, did their monthly home or visiting teaching, held temple recommends, fulfilled callings and held family home evenings…didn’t feel that they were doing enough to reach the highest reward in Mormonism.
Although I admit that my example is anecdotal, I believe it illustrates reality inside Mormonism…the inherent knowledge among active Mormon’s that “Their best efforts are NEVER and will NEVER be good enough”
And no wonder when almost every priesthood leadership meeting is filled with denunciations from the pulpit for the few male leaders in attendance to do better…lengthen their stride…reach higher…jump further. For the field is white, ready to harvest and lo he that thrustest in his sickle with his might…the same layest up…blah blah blah.
As a young Elders Quorum President, trying my hardest to do all that was asked of me while still trying to manage a young, growing family and a growing business, I personally did all of the home teaching that had not been completed by the 25th of each month. But try as I might, I just couldn’t get to 100% [families being gone etc] every month. Each month I knew that the bishop would come down hard on me for not fulfilling my priesthood duties [which I took very seriously]. So each successive month I would rededicate myself and my councilors to once again reaching the coveted 100% home teaching goal....but it never happened, at least not consecutivly.
A few months after I had been released, I was surprised, when a visiting member of our stake high council stopped by our quorum to congratulate the new elder’s quorum presidency for three successive months of 100% home teaching. I felt humiliated and mad for two reasons. First because my presidency had never had successive 100% home teaching months…AND second, because since I had been released…I had NEVER had a home teacher....ever. Rather than put in the effort to reach 100% home teaching…the rather SMART new presidency just lied and turned in false numbers. I remember speaking to my rather stunned former councilors who also admitted that they too had not been receiving home teachers. We all agreed that we had been rather stupid for trying so hard...if all you had to do to get recognition from our inspired priesthood leaders was lie our ass's off.
But the need for perfection had been so great on this new elder’s quorum presidency, they just decided to lie rather than do the work.
As a full time missionary, numbers were very important. And despite claims to the contrary, Numbers were everything. Yes there were the required words to teach by the spirit…but god damn it…the spirit better get you at least 30 teaching opportunities a week or else.
Every Elder was measured against the other. Companionships that worked the most hours, placed the most Book of Mormons, taught the most discussions or if all the stars aligned, actually had a baptism were highlighted in our monthly “Report” Newsletter. Elders that excelled in their work habits advanced…elders that turned in less than stellar numbers…remained Sr Comps or a mere Jr Comp. Numbers mattered. And Boy did I have Numbers. I led the mission month after month… in many of the NUMBER areas and quickly advanced up the leadership ladder….reaching Assistant to the President the last 6 months of my mission. The quest for perfection was everywhere. I now feel bad for playing that game and mentally beating up those elders that just couldn’t or wouldn’t play along with the numbers/perfection game.
Sometimes…someone’s best really is less than some arbitrary number picked by a mission president and his AP’s.
Utah leads the nation in depression. Could this be related to the Mormon perfection quest and the reality of its failure members to actually reach perfection?
As a former Mormon, I now look back on my mormon perfection quest with a sense of glee that I was able to get off the Mormon Perfection Quest Merry Go Round. Knowing that I only have to please myself and no longer have the need to cater to the whims of old men in Salt Lake City and their never ending pleas to do more, give more, be more.
It’s said that water finds its own level, everyone is different, everyone’s needs and abilities are not the same…Living the cookie cutter, one size fits all LIFE offered by Mormonism is NOT an authentic life. It's a fake life. I am so very grateful I discovered this reality…while I was still at an age and had the ability to live an authentic life.
As a member of the High Council with the assignment of speaking to my assigned ward on the subject of being perfect, I asked those in the congregation the following question. “By the raise of hands, who here feels that they will inherent the Celestial Kingdom?’ To my utter shock, out of a congregation numbering about 350, only a small smattering of 6-8 hands went up. This Wasatch front ward, full of active Mormon’s…most of whom paid a full tithe, did their monthly home or visiting teaching, held temple recommends, fulfilled callings and held family home evenings…didn’t feel that they were doing enough to reach the highest reward in Mormonism.
Although I admit that my example is anecdotal, I believe it illustrates reality inside Mormonism…the inherent knowledge among active Mormon’s that “Their best efforts are NEVER and will NEVER be good enough”
And no wonder when almost every priesthood leadership meeting is filled with denunciations from the pulpit for the few male leaders in attendance to do better…lengthen their stride…reach higher…jump further. For the field is white, ready to harvest and lo he that thrustest in his sickle with his might…the same layest up…blah blah blah.
As a young Elders Quorum President, trying my hardest to do all that was asked of me while still trying to manage a young, growing family and a growing business, I personally did all of the home teaching that had not been completed by the 25th of each month. But try as I might, I just couldn’t get to 100% [families being gone etc] every month. Each month I knew that the bishop would come down hard on me for not fulfilling my priesthood duties [which I took very seriously]. So each successive month I would rededicate myself and my councilors to once again reaching the coveted 100% home teaching goal....but it never happened, at least not consecutivly.
A few months after I had been released, I was surprised, when a visiting member of our stake high council stopped by our quorum to congratulate the new elder’s quorum presidency for three successive months of 100% home teaching. I felt humiliated and mad for two reasons. First because my presidency had never had successive 100% home teaching months…AND second, because since I had been released…I had NEVER had a home teacher....ever. Rather than put in the effort to reach 100% home teaching…the rather SMART new presidency just lied and turned in false numbers. I remember speaking to my rather stunned former councilors who also admitted that they too had not been receiving home teachers. We all agreed that we had been rather stupid for trying so hard...if all you had to do to get recognition from our inspired priesthood leaders was lie our ass's off.
But the need for perfection had been so great on this new elder’s quorum presidency, they just decided to lie rather than do the work.
As a full time missionary, numbers were very important. And despite claims to the contrary, Numbers were everything. Yes there were the required words to teach by the spirit…but god damn it…the spirit better get you at least 30 teaching opportunities a week or else.
Every Elder was measured against the other. Companionships that worked the most hours, placed the most Book of Mormons, taught the most discussions or if all the stars aligned, actually had a baptism were highlighted in our monthly “Report” Newsletter. Elders that excelled in their work habits advanced…elders that turned in less than stellar numbers…remained Sr Comps or a mere Jr Comp. Numbers mattered. And Boy did I have Numbers. I led the mission month after month… in many of the NUMBER areas and quickly advanced up the leadership ladder….reaching Assistant to the President the last 6 months of my mission. The quest for perfection was everywhere. I now feel bad for playing that game and mentally beating up those elders that just couldn’t or wouldn’t play along with the numbers/perfection game.
Sometimes…someone’s best really is less than some arbitrary number picked by a mission president and his AP’s.
Utah leads the nation in depression. Could this be related to the Mormon perfection quest and the reality of its failure members to actually reach perfection?
As a former Mormon, I now look back on my mormon perfection quest with a sense of glee that I was able to get off the Mormon Perfection Quest Merry Go Round. Knowing that I only have to please myself and no longer have the need to cater to the whims of old men in Salt Lake City and their never ending pleas to do more, give more, be more.
It’s said that water finds its own level, everyone is different, everyone’s needs and abilities are not the same…Living the cookie cutter, one size fits all LIFE offered by Mormonism is NOT an authentic life. It's a fake life. I am so very grateful I discovered this reality…while I was still at an age and had the ability to live an authentic life.
Tuesday, July 01, 2008
I Wanted Mormonism's Claims to be True...But instead, It Broke My Heart
I absolutely loved the LDS Church. I loved the culture, I loved the people, I loved and looked up to the GA’s as examples to base my life on and I loved the comfort that I had the TRUTH. I could with an aire of confident pride look at my fellow man and feel sadness and compassion for their lack of belief in accepting Mormonism’s truth. I took comfort in knowing that I was not just another human being walking blindly on the face of the earth... I knew who I was; I was a Child of God... a God in embryo. Yeah, I bought the “Snake Oil” and all its promises of families being together forever.... eternal marriage.... Godhood...eternal progress...That’s what makes it hurt so much even today. To discover the lies, the whitewashing, and the glorification of history to make it more spiritually uplifting, to have been taught the foundational stories as the church wanted its history to have played out rather than how it actually did play out.... I feel lied to and deceived by the very people I had placed such total confidence in. They lied to me and continue to lie to promote their agenda of belief. But belief in lies is just a false hope.
Coming to the realization that the LDS Church is not what it calms to be…has been the most painful experience of my life…yes even more so than being subjected to the church court which led to my excommunication (which was the second most painful experience of my life) Discovering that the church of my birth, has lied about its foundational claims…is more than I care to bare. Yet the facts that lead me to this conclusion seem beyond reproach. I just can’t fake it any longer; I can’t hold the pieces of the puzzle together in my head any longer. Much like the Dutch boy with his fingers in the dike holding back the flood. I had been plugging the many conflicts in my faith in Mormonism since my mission and the dam just finally broke. I can’t hold all the conflicting so called truths…one must be true while the other false. Conflicting claims of truth can’t all be true. I have to accept reality!
Mormonism is amazing to me in that regard...its ability to get its "knowledgeable" members to ignore credible information that conflicts with the offical church scrubed stories. How do these active members maintain these conflicting bits of information in their head while still being able to maintain faith in the church. God bless em I say ...I just couldn't lie to myself any longer. I no longer had the ability to maintain the cognitive dissonance.
Gordon B. Hinckley and many others have said that the church is either the truth or it’s a fraud...its either what it claims to be or it isn't. The fact that the church needs to lie and cover-up and whitewash and doctor and change its history and foundational stories in order to make them more faith promoting, finally collapsed what faith I still had remaining. I asked myself.... Would Jesus need to lie to support belief in Him? I answer that by saying NO, He wouldn't need to lie...which begs the question...then why would HIS church need to lie? Gordon Hinckley challenged members of the church to stand for something…well I decided to stand for TRUTH.
But most active Mormon’s won't expose themselves to the conflicting information.....it’s just too painful. My dear wife, whom I love to death...barely listens to anything I have to say on the subject. I have no credibility with her. It has broken her heart to see me lose the faith and belief I once held so dear, but I couldn't live a lie any longer. I refuse to live a lie for anyone. The church may be the greatest thing ever invented…but if it was invented…and its not what it claims to be, then I want nothing to do with it
The average run of the mill active believing member of the church won't listen to reason....they have been so conditioned by the church that they won’t listen to alternative ideas when they come in conflict with the church’s version of foundational claims. Questioning is not encouraged…if in so doing it questions faith in official stories. Even when confronted with factual documented proof...active members discard it as anti-Mormon falsehoods. How do I know this...that description used to be me.
My ah hah moment was when I finally decided that I had to know the truth no matter what the consequences...When I allowed myself to search for the truth even at the cost of my faith...it was over. The truth won out. I didn't like the truth...the truth was extremely painful, but I couldn't deny it either…the evidence against Mormonism is overwhelming.
I have no agenda against the church...you won't find me at conference holding up signs promoting what I’ve discovered... I just want to live an honest athentic life and be the best person, husband, father I can be….
One thing I’ve learned through this process of discovery is that it is not possible to accept reality unless you are willing to accept the remote possibility that the church may not be what it claims to be. If you can't accept that possibility...then you will never accept reality when it comes to church claims.
.
Coming to the realization that the LDS Church is not what it calms to be…has been the most painful experience of my life…yes even more so than being subjected to the church court which led to my excommunication (which was the second most painful experience of my life) Discovering that the church of my birth, has lied about its foundational claims…is more than I care to bare. Yet the facts that lead me to this conclusion seem beyond reproach. I just can’t fake it any longer; I can’t hold the pieces of the puzzle together in my head any longer. Much like the Dutch boy with his fingers in the dike holding back the flood. I had been plugging the many conflicts in my faith in Mormonism since my mission and the dam just finally broke. I can’t hold all the conflicting so called truths…one must be true while the other false. Conflicting claims of truth can’t all be true. I have to accept reality!
Mormonism is amazing to me in that regard...its ability to get its "knowledgeable" members to ignore credible information that conflicts with the offical church scrubed stories. How do these active members maintain these conflicting bits of information in their head while still being able to maintain faith in the church. God bless em I say ...I just couldn't lie to myself any longer. I no longer had the ability to maintain the cognitive dissonance.
Gordon B. Hinckley and many others have said that the church is either the truth or it’s a fraud...its either what it claims to be or it isn't. The fact that the church needs to lie and cover-up and whitewash and doctor and change its history and foundational stories in order to make them more faith promoting, finally collapsed what faith I still had remaining. I asked myself.... Would Jesus need to lie to support belief in Him? I answer that by saying NO, He wouldn't need to lie...which begs the question...then why would HIS church need to lie? Gordon Hinckley challenged members of the church to stand for something…well I decided to stand for TRUTH.
But most active Mormon’s won't expose themselves to the conflicting information.....it’s just too painful. My dear wife, whom I love to death...barely listens to anything I have to say on the subject. I have no credibility with her. It has broken her heart to see me lose the faith and belief I once held so dear, but I couldn't live a lie any longer. I refuse to live a lie for anyone. The church may be the greatest thing ever invented…but if it was invented…and its not what it claims to be, then I want nothing to do with it
The average run of the mill active believing member of the church won't listen to reason....they have been so conditioned by the church that they won’t listen to alternative ideas when they come in conflict with the church’s version of foundational claims. Questioning is not encouraged…if in so doing it questions faith in official stories. Even when confronted with factual documented proof...active members discard it as anti-Mormon falsehoods. How do I know this...that description used to be me.
My ah hah moment was when I finally decided that I had to know the truth no matter what the consequences...When I allowed myself to search for the truth even at the cost of my faith...it was over. The truth won out. I didn't like the truth...the truth was extremely painful, but I couldn't deny it either…the evidence against Mormonism is overwhelming.
I have no agenda against the church...you won't find me at conference holding up signs promoting what I’ve discovered... I just want to live an honest athentic life and be the best person, husband, father I can be….
One thing I’ve learned through this process of discovery is that it is not possible to accept reality unless you are willing to accept the remote possibility that the church may not be what it claims to be. If you can't accept that possibility...then you will never accept reality when it comes to church claims.
.
Monday, June 16, 2008
Mormon Church to Members ... Ignore Reality ... Trust Your Feelings
"Mormon-Think" can be summed up in one sentence uttered by one of its top 15 leaders, Boyd K. Packer (next in line to assume the presidency of the Mormon Church).
In other words…When confronted with verifiable physical evidence that conflicts any Mormon claim…Ignore it, stick your fingers in your ears, and yell naw, naw, naw, naw…I can’t hear you.
Don’t believe in verifiable, observable, testable, discernable, visible, recognizable evidence. Instead ignore all conflicting evidence and place your faith in your human emotions and feelings that can’t be manipulated, managed and controlled. For you can always rely on your human emotions and feelings as a confirming witness to truth.
I understand why the Mormon Church would want its members to place their faith in something so unstable as their own human emotions and feelings becasue the church knows that it has trademarked its ability to manipulate human feelings.
The church through its own subsidiary,Bonneville Communications , boldly flaunts its ability to manipulate the human heart (feelings) stating its unique strength is their …”ability to touch the hearts and minds of audiences, evoking first feeling, then thought and, finally, action. They call this uniquely powerful brand of creative advertising HeartSell® — strategic emotional advertising that stimulates a response.” Anyone who doubts the Mormon churches ability to evoke emotions may ask the question ... Why do missionaries hand out tissues to audience members viewing the church produced "Joseph Smith Movie"? The movie demonstates the churches ability to manipulate tears, feelings and emotions... AKA "The Spirit"
They proudly proclaim that for over 30 years [their] creative professionals have designed public service and direct response messages for national nonprofit organizations such as the Huntsman Cancer Institute, Boy Scouts of American, National Hospice Foundation, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and The Salvation Army.
Yup…don’t trust the observable, verifiable or testable….trust your human emotions. (Just make sure that the church isn’t using its trademarked special human feelings manipulation technique “HeartSell®” on you.
"When confronted by evidence in the rocks below, rely on the witness of the heavens above”
In other words…When confronted with verifiable physical evidence that conflicts any Mormon claim…Ignore it, stick your fingers in your ears, and yell naw, naw, naw, naw…I can’t hear you.
Don’t believe in verifiable, observable, testable, discernable, visible, recognizable evidence. Instead ignore all conflicting evidence and place your faith in your human emotions and feelings that can’t be manipulated, managed and controlled. For you can always rely on your human emotions and feelings as a confirming witness to truth.
I understand why the Mormon Church would want its members to place their faith in something so unstable as their own human emotions and feelings becasue the church knows that it has trademarked its ability to manipulate human feelings.
The church through its own subsidiary,Bonneville Communications , boldly flaunts its ability to manipulate the human heart (feelings) stating its unique strength is their …”ability to touch the hearts and minds of audiences, evoking first feeling, then thought and, finally, action. They call this uniquely powerful brand of creative advertising HeartSell® — strategic emotional advertising that stimulates a response.” Anyone who doubts the Mormon churches ability to evoke emotions may ask the question ... Why do missionaries hand out tissues to audience members viewing the church produced "Joseph Smith Movie"? The movie demonstates the churches ability to manipulate tears, feelings and emotions... AKA "The Spirit"
They proudly proclaim that for over 30 years [their] creative professionals have designed public service and direct response messages for national nonprofit organizations such as the Huntsman Cancer Institute, Boy Scouts of American, National Hospice Foundation, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and The Salvation Army.
Yup…don’t trust the observable, verifiable or testable….trust your human emotions. (Just make sure that the church isn’t using its trademarked special human feelings manipulation technique “HeartSell®” on you.
Thursday, June 12, 2008
"WTF? - Adam was a "Black" African?"
A few years ago I read the book "The Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey" by Spencer Wells. Wells, a geneticist, traces the DNA forefather of all current living mankind back to a single man who lived in Africa 60,000 years ago.
In a National Geographic article on this subject we read:
“By analyzing DNA from people in all regions of the world, geneticist Spencer Wells has concluded that all humans alive today are descended from a single man who lived in Africa around 60,000 years ago.
Modern humans, he contends, didn't start their spread across the globe until after that time. Most archaeologists would say the exodus began 100,000 years ago—a 40,000-year discrepancy.
Wells’ take on the origins of modern humans and how they came to populate the rest of the planet is bound to be controversial.
His work adds to an already crowded field of opposing hypotheses proposed by those who seek answers in "stones and bones"—archaeologists and paleoanthropologists—and those who seek them in our blood—population geneticists and molecular biologists.
Over the last decade, major debate on whether early humans evolved in Africa or elsewhere, when they began outward migration, where they went, and whether they interbred with or replaced archaic species has moved out of scientific journals and into the public consciousness.
Wells addresses these issues in a new book, The Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey, and a National Geographic documentary of the same title. In a straightforward story, he explains how he traced the exodus of modern humans from Africa by analyzing genetic changes in DNA from the y-chromosome.
"As often happens in science," he said, "technology has opened up a field to new ways of answering old questions—often providing startling answers."
You can read the rest of this article here:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/1212_021213_journeyofman.html
The poster Zelph, in a comment left on my Mormonism is Dependant on Death First Occurring 6,000 Years Ago post, made the following comment….”on the topic of the first humans, it is evident that the first humans came from Africa. I doubt that the white bread people we see in the temple video would survive the African Sahara. The first humans probably looked like Africans today. Just shows the level of racism to automatically assume that the first parents were white.”
Not only that but…knowing that our first parents were of African descent throws a Huge “WTF” moment at the Mormon ban of Blacks of ONLY African descent holding the so-called super duper magical Mormon priesthood powers. For the Mormon paradigm to work, Adam had to be “White and delightsome” for only then could God have cursed Adam’s son Cain with his dark loathsome skin we find in the African race (according to Mormon doctrine). For it was by being labeled as the descendants of the evil Cain that generations of Blacks {of only African decent} were denied the full rights and so-called privileges of Mormonism's Priesthood.
Once again...the realities of science are screwing with the rational for the Mormon ban against the African race.
Funny how NOTHING discovered by Science confirms ANY of Mormonism’s bizarre core doctrines…
Actually its rather sad...
In a National Geographic article on this subject we read:
“By analyzing DNA from people in all regions of the world, geneticist Spencer Wells has concluded that all humans alive today are descended from a single man who lived in Africa around 60,000 years ago.
Modern humans, he contends, didn't start their spread across the globe until after that time. Most archaeologists would say the exodus began 100,000 years ago—a 40,000-year discrepancy.
Wells’ take on the origins of modern humans and how they came to populate the rest of the planet is bound to be controversial.
His work adds to an already crowded field of opposing hypotheses proposed by those who seek answers in "stones and bones"—archaeologists and paleoanthropologists—and those who seek them in our blood—population geneticists and molecular biologists.
Over the last decade, major debate on whether early humans evolved in Africa or elsewhere, when they began outward migration, where they went, and whether they interbred with or replaced archaic species has moved out of scientific journals and into the public consciousness.
Wells addresses these issues in a new book, The Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey, and a National Geographic documentary of the same title. In a straightforward story, he explains how he traced the exodus of modern humans from Africa by analyzing genetic changes in DNA from the y-chromosome.
"As often happens in science," he said, "technology has opened up a field to new ways of answering old questions—often providing startling answers."
You can read the rest of this article here:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/1212_021213_journeyofman.html
The poster Zelph, in a comment left on my Mormonism is Dependant on Death First Occurring 6,000 Years Ago post, made the following comment….”on the topic of the first humans, it is evident that the first humans came from Africa. I doubt that the white bread people we see in the temple video would survive the African Sahara. The first humans probably looked like Africans today. Just shows the level of racism to automatically assume that the first parents were white.”
Not only that but…knowing that our first parents were of African descent throws a Huge “WTF” moment at the Mormon ban of Blacks of ONLY African descent holding the so-called super duper magical Mormon priesthood powers. For the Mormon paradigm to work, Adam had to be “White and delightsome” for only then could God have cursed Adam’s son Cain with his dark loathsome skin we find in the African race (according to Mormon doctrine). For it was by being labeled as the descendants of the evil Cain that generations of Blacks {of only African decent} were denied the full rights and so-called privileges of Mormonism's Priesthood.
Once again...the realities of science are screwing with the rational for the Mormon ban against the African race.
Funny how NOTHING discovered by Science confirms ANY of Mormonism’s bizarre core doctrines…
Actually its rather sad...
Wednesday, June 11, 2008
My 10 Favorite Questions to Ask Mormon's
01. Describe in detail the Book of Mormon civilizations, their food, money system, animals, modes of transportation, tools, weapon systems etc.
A. Where did this civilization exist?
B. Why have none of these outward signs of this civilization ever been found?
C. Can you name any other civilization that left no earthly footprint of its existence?
02. When did Adam immerge from the Garden of Eden? {If they are stumpt…refer them to their Mormon Bible Concordance which states that Adam immerged from the Garden of Eden 4,000 BCE}
A. Where was the Garden of Eden? {I throw this in for fun}
B. Was there death on the earth before Adam left the Garden?
a. If they say no…have them explain the fossil record
b. If they say yes…have them explain Mormon doctrine that states that physical death was introduced with the Fall of Adam.
03. How old is the earth? {again if they get stumpt refer them to D&C 77}
A. Once they establish 6,000 years have them explain how the archeological record shows modern-man has been in the America’s for nearly 20,000 years and throughout the earth for over 100,000 years and in Africa for over 1,000,000 years.
B. How do you reconcile this with Adam leaving the garden 6,000 years ago?
04. Was there a Universal Flood and a reqal historical Noah?
A. If yes, have them explain how all the animals got to their final destinations i.e., Kangaroo only in Australia, Hummingbirds on in the America’s
B. If there was a central distribution point {AKA Mt Ararat} why don’t we find these unique animals distributed throughout the earth rather than in their isolated locations with no fossil record leading back to the Middle East?
C. If there was a Universal Flood explain the archeological record showing the presents of man in the America’s {and other parts of the world} prior to and following Noah but before the timeline of Jared and Lehi.
05. Are the Pacific Islanders descendants of Lehi?
A. Explain the scientific evidence that shows they descended from Asian forefathers and NOT American forefathers.
06. Explain in detail the method Joseph Smith translated the Golden Plates? The actual mechanics of this process.
A. If they know the actual process congratulates them…if they don’t inform them.
B. Explain how JS accomplished his translation with the plates being nowhere in sight?
C. Explain how the same process Joseph used to “con” local farmer with his treasure digging scam could have been the process God used to translate Golden Plates?
07. Do you believe in Evolution?
A. Explain how mankind and chimpanzees share 98.7% identical DNA?
08. Does the Sun generate its own energy {self contained} or does it borrow its energy from other planets… i.e. Kolob? {see the Book of Abraham}
09. Explain how 18th century man-made additions to the King James Bible found their way into the Book of Mormon?
10. Explain how sections of 2nd Nephi’s Isaiah taken from Laban’s Brass Plates included parts of the Biblical Isaiah that were written after Lehi left Jerusalem?
Of course caution should be used with the use of these questions as they have the terrible side effect of causing your Mormon subject to have to actually **THINK** which could lead to cognitive dissonance...and begin the process that may eventually led to apostasy.
A. Where did this civilization exist?
B. Why have none of these outward signs of this civilization ever been found?
C. Can you name any other civilization that left no earthly footprint of its existence?
02. When did Adam immerge from the Garden of Eden? {If they are stumpt…refer them to their Mormon Bible Concordance which states that Adam immerged from the Garden of Eden 4,000 BCE}
A. Where was the Garden of Eden? {I throw this in for fun}
B. Was there death on the earth before Adam left the Garden?
a. If they say no…have them explain the fossil record
b. If they say yes…have them explain Mormon doctrine that states that physical death was introduced with the Fall of Adam.
03. How old is the earth? {again if they get stumpt refer them to D&C 77}
A. Once they establish 6,000 years have them explain how the archeological record shows modern-man has been in the America’s for nearly 20,000 years and throughout the earth for over 100,000 years and in Africa for over 1,000,000 years.
B. How do you reconcile this with Adam leaving the garden 6,000 years ago?
04. Was there a Universal Flood and a reqal historical Noah?
A. If yes, have them explain how all the animals got to their final destinations i.e., Kangaroo only in Australia, Hummingbirds on in the America’s
B. If there was a central distribution point {AKA Mt Ararat} why don’t we find these unique animals distributed throughout the earth rather than in their isolated locations with no fossil record leading back to the Middle East?
C. If there was a Universal Flood explain the archeological record showing the presents of man in the America’s {and other parts of the world} prior to and following Noah but before the timeline of Jared and Lehi.
05. Are the Pacific Islanders descendants of Lehi?
A. Explain the scientific evidence that shows they descended from Asian forefathers and NOT American forefathers.
06. Explain in detail the method Joseph Smith translated the Golden Plates? The actual mechanics of this process.
A. If they know the actual process congratulates them…if they don’t inform them.
B. Explain how JS accomplished his translation with the plates being nowhere in sight?
C. Explain how the same process Joseph used to “con” local farmer with his treasure digging scam could have been the process God used to translate Golden Plates?
07. Do you believe in Evolution?
A. Explain how mankind and chimpanzees share 98.7% identical DNA?
08. Does the Sun generate its own energy {self contained} or does it borrow its energy from other planets… i.e. Kolob? {see the Book of Abraham}
09. Explain how 18th century man-made additions to the King James Bible found their way into the Book of Mormon?
10. Explain how sections of 2nd Nephi’s Isaiah taken from Laban’s Brass Plates included parts of the Biblical Isaiah that were written after Lehi left Jerusalem?
Of course caution should be used with the use of these questions as they have the terrible side effect of causing your Mormon subject to have to actually **THINK** which could lead to cognitive dissonance...and begin the process that may eventually led to apostasy.
Tuesday, June 10, 2008
Mormonism is Dependant on Death First Occuring 6,000 Years Ago
In an October 1996 Conference talk, Mormon Apostle Russell M. Nelson again reiterated a fundamental Mormon doctrine concerning the historicity of The Fall of Adam and the introduction of physical death (November 1996 Ensign beginning on page 33) by stating:
"The Creation required the Fall. The Fall required the Atonement. The Atonement enabled the purpose of the Creation to be accomplished. Eternal life, made possible by the Atonement, is the supreme purpose of the Creation. To phrase that statement in its negative form, if families were not sealed in holy temples, the whole earth would be utterly wasted.The purposes of the Creation, the Fall, and the Atonement all converge on the sacred work done in temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The earth was created and the Church was restored to make possible the sealing of wife to husband, children to parents, families to progenitors, worlds without end.This is the great latter-day work of which we are a part. That is why we have missionaries; that is why we have temples-to bring the fullest blessings of the Atonement to faithful children of God."
Section 77 of the Mormon Doctrine and Covenants as well as the official Mormon Church website set in concrete the chronology of Adam's Fall as occurring in the year 4000 BCE, http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/chrono , So again we have a FIXED historical date for the introduction of death according to Mormon doctrine.
But any elementary school aged student (unless they were educated in Utah) can tell you that death has existed on the earth as long as life as existed...literally millions of years. Fortunately we have a fossil record to confirm this reality.
So how does the church explain away this huge problem in its foundational doctrine?
Chirp...chirp...chirp....
Complete and utter silence on this obvious (to any thinking person) conflict.
The mere fact that death has existed for millennia, illiminates the Mormon claim for the need of atonement. For if death has existed for literally millions of years...then there was NO Fall of Adam...if there was No Fall of Adam...then according to Mormon doctrine there is no need for an atonement....if no need for an atonement...there is no need for a Christ...
The FACT, that there was never a FALL ,as Mormon's claim, some 6,000 years ago, completely collapses Mormonism's House of Cards.
Maybe Bruce R. McConkie said it better than I...
"If death has always prevailed in the world, there was no fall of Adam which brought death to all forms of life. If Adam did not fall, there is no need for an atonement. If there was no atonement, there is no salvation, no resurrection, no eternal life, nothing in all of the glorious promises that the Lord has given us. If there is no salvation, there is no God. The fall affects man, all forms of life, and the earth itself". - Bruce R. McConkie
Hmmm maybe Bruce and I agree on something…
"The Creation required the Fall. The Fall required the Atonement. The Atonement enabled the purpose of the Creation to be accomplished. Eternal life, made possible by the Atonement, is the supreme purpose of the Creation. To phrase that statement in its negative form, if families were not sealed in holy temples, the whole earth would be utterly wasted.The purposes of the Creation, the Fall, and the Atonement all converge on the sacred work done in temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The earth was created and the Church was restored to make possible the sealing of wife to husband, children to parents, families to progenitors, worlds without end.This is the great latter-day work of which we are a part. That is why we have missionaries; that is why we have temples-to bring the fullest blessings of the Atonement to faithful children of God."
Section 77 of the Mormon Doctrine and Covenants as well as the official Mormon Church website set in concrete the chronology of Adam's Fall as occurring in the year 4000 BCE, http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/chrono , So again we have a FIXED historical date for the introduction of death according to Mormon doctrine.
But any elementary school aged student (unless they were educated in Utah) can tell you that death has existed on the earth as long as life as existed...literally millions of years. Fortunately we have a fossil record to confirm this reality.
So how does the church explain away this huge problem in its foundational doctrine?
Chirp...chirp...chirp....
Complete and utter silence on this obvious (to any thinking person) conflict.
The mere fact that death has existed for millennia, illiminates the Mormon claim for the need of atonement. For if death has existed for literally millions of years...then there was NO Fall of Adam...if there was No Fall of Adam...then according to Mormon doctrine there is no need for an atonement....if no need for an atonement...there is no need for a Christ...
The FACT, that there was never a FALL ,as Mormon's claim, some 6,000 years ago, completely collapses Mormonism's House of Cards.
Maybe Bruce R. McConkie said it better than I...
"If death has always prevailed in the world, there was no fall of Adam which brought death to all forms of life. If Adam did not fall, there is no need for an atonement. If there was no atonement, there is no salvation, no resurrection, no eternal life, nothing in all of the glorious promises that the Lord has given us. If there is no salvation, there is no God. The fall affects man, all forms of life, and the earth itself". - Bruce R. McConkie
Hmmm maybe Bruce and I agree on something…
What is Truth?
What is Truth?
When I was a believing Mormon, one of my favorite hymns was, “Oh Say What is Truth.”
Oh say, what is truth? 'Tis the fairest gem That the riches of worlds can produce, And priceless the value of truth will be when The proud monarch's costliest diadem Is counted but dross and refuse.
Yes, say, what is truth? 'Tis the brightest prize To which mortals or Gods can aspire; Go search in the depths where it glittering lies Or ascend in pursuit to the loftiest skies. 'Tis an aim for the noblest desire.
The sceptre may fall from the despot's grasp When with winds of stern justice he copes, But the pillar of truth will endure to the last, And its firm-rooted bulwarks outstand the rude blast, And the wreck of the fell tyrant's hopes.
Then say, what is truth? 'Tis the last and the first, For the limits of time it steps o'er. Though the heavens depart and the earth's fountains burst, Truth, the sum of existence, will weather the worst, Eternal, unchanged, evermore.
Truth is eternal and unchanging. Truth does not cave into public pressure or bow to the whims of man. Truth is timeless, it is absolute, and it is unquestionable and certain. If something is true…you can bank on it forever and even if the heavens depart and earth’s fountains burst, truth will remain unchanged evermore.
I was taught that the tenants of Mormonism met the toughest of truth tests. That Mormonism and truth were synonyms of each other. Mormonism = Truth and Truth = Mormonism. How is it possible that I could have been so wrong?
Discovering that the church was not what it claims was one of the hardest conclusions of my entire life. It has been an extremely excruciating and painful supposition to come to. With all my being, I wanted the church to be all it says it is. To be TRUE. But the depth of the lies, cover-up and whitewashing coupled with so many obvious false claims were just too overwhelming for me to maintain faith in Mormonism. I agonizingly came to the conclusion that despite what I had been taught all my life, the faith of my youth had been built on false and unfulfillable promises of eternal life, eternal families and marriage only by maintaining an allegiance to Mormonism. The abundance of conflicting information to this claim can lead to only one logical conclusion, “The church is not what it claims to be“. It is NOT True.
To me ... this is the underlying evil of Mormonism ... It is equivalent to buying a medical elixir from a snake oil salesman who claims that his elixir and his alone can cure all of your medical ills. You buy into his claim of wonderful medical miracle cures and pay your money. You go home take the elixir exactly as instructed…you have great faith in this salesman and his product, believing that his claims are true. But when the desired cure never takes place…you go to get your money back….but the salesman has skipped town with his fictional claims and your money…you were sold a fiction, and despite his truth claims and your faith…it never was going to be anything other than fiction with no chance of ever delivering on its claims. You were sold a false hope and the salesman never had, nor intended to make good on his promises.
The allure of Mormonism is its claim of truth. The false hope in Mormonism is its ability to pass off to the NEXT life all of its big pay offs. The REAL rewards don’t arrive until you’re dead…when I suggest that none of us will have the ability to ask for a refund…Mormonism is a false hope with no intention of ever being able to make good on its promises.
Like the snake oil salesman promising miracle cures...Mormonism sells its members false hopes in the eternities that it will never have to make payment on. It sells its membership false promises that it will never have to keep.
Some knowledgeable members believe that a lifetime of dedication and obedience to the church is warranted because of the earthly benefits that are inherent in the church in this life. Because the church brings these members closer to Christ...they overlook or ignore the difficult history and false claims of the church. They buy into the claim that the church makes them a better human being. The promises of eternity are merely the “dessert” on an already wonderful lifestyle. In other words, some members are willing to overlook the truth claims of Mormonism because they perceive or reap earthly benefits. So the lifestyle benefits are worth forfeiting so-called earthly gratifications.
So Mormonism is a false religion because its claims are false. It claims to be the only true church on the face of the earth...yet its doctrine is riddled with falsehoods.
Some time ago I compiled some of the false testable claims found in Mormonism... here is a small portion of that effort.
Testable false claims found in Mormonism:
1.) If there was not a universal flood 4000 plus years ago, Mormonism is a fraud.
When I was a believing Mormon, one of my favorite hymns was, “Oh Say What is Truth.”
Oh say, what is truth? 'Tis the fairest gem That the riches of worlds can produce, And priceless the value of truth will be when The proud monarch's costliest diadem Is counted but dross and refuse.
Yes, say, what is truth? 'Tis the brightest prize To which mortals or Gods can aspire; Go search in the depths where it glittering lies Or ascend in pursuit to the loftiest skies. 'Tis an aim for the noblest desire.
The sceptre may fall from the despot's grasp When with winds of stern justice he copes, But the pillar of truth will endure to the last, And its firm-rooted bulwarks outstand the rude blast, And the wreck of the fell tyrant's hopes.
Then say, what is truth? 'Tis the last and the first, For the limits of time it steps o'er. Though the heavens depart and the earth's fountains burst, Truth, the sum of existence, will weather the worst, Eternal, unchanged, evermore.
I was raised to be truthful. I have always placed great value in being truthful and in seeking Truth. There are a few stanzas from this hymn that are of particular interest to me and seem to sum up how I view truth. “But the pillar of truth will endure to the last” and “Though the heavens depart and the earth's fountains burst, Truth, the sum of existence, will weather the worst, Eternal, unchanged, evermore”
Truth is eternal and unchanging. Truth does not cave into public pressure or bow to the whims of man. Truth is timeless, it is absolute, and it is unquestionable and certain. If something is true…you can bank on it forever and even if the heavens depart and earth’s fountains burst, truth will remain unchanged evermore.
I was taught that the tenants of Mormonism met the toughest of truth tests. That Mormonism and truth were synonyms of each other. Mormonism = Truth and Truth = Mormonism. How is it possible that I could have been so wrong?
Discovering that the church was not what it claims was one of the hardest conclusions of my entire life. It has been an extremely excruciating and painful supposition to come to. With all my being, I wanted the church to be all it says it is. To be TRUE. But the depth of the lies, cover-up and whitewashing coupled with so many obvious false claims were just too overwhelming for me to maintain faith in Mormonism. I agonizingly came to the conclusion that despite what I had been taught all my life, the faith of my youth had been built on false and unfulfillable promises of eternal life, eternal families and marriage only by maintaining an allegiance to Mormonism. The abundance of conflicting information to this claim can lead to only one logical conclusion, “The church is not what it claims to be“. It is NOT True.
To me ... this is the underlying evil of Mormonism ... It is equivalent to buying a medical elixir from a snake oil salesman who claims that his elixir and his alone can cure all of your medical ills. You buy into his claim of wonderful medical miracle cures and pay your money. You go home take the elixir exactly as instructed…you have great faith in this salesman and his product, believing that his claims are true. But when the desired cure never takes place…you go to get your money back….but the salesman has skipped town with his fictional claims and your money…you were sold a fiction, and despite his truth claims and your faith…it never was going to be anything other than fiction with no chance of ever delivering on its claims. You were sold a false hope and the salesman never had, nor intended to make good on his promises.
The allure of Mormonism is its claim of truth. The false hope in Mormonism is its ability to pass off to the NEXT life all of its big pay offs. The REAL rewards don’t arrive until you’re dead…when I suggest that none of us will have the ability to ask for a refund…Mormonism is a false hope with no intention of ever being able to make good on its promises.
Like the snake oil salesman promising miracle cures...Mormonism sells its members false hopes in the eternities that it will never have to make payment on. It sells its membership false promises that it will never have to keep.
Some knowledgeable members believe that a lifetime of dedication and obedience to the church is warranted because of the earthly benefits that are inherent in the church in this life. Because the church brings these members closer to Christ...they overlook or ignore the difficult history and false claims of the church. They buy into the claim that the church makes them a better human being. The promises of eternity are merely the “dessert” on an already wonderful lifestyle. In other words, some members are willing to overlook the truth claims of Mormonism because they perceive or reap earthly benefits. So the lifestyle benefits are worth forfeiting so-called earthly gratifications.
So Mormonism is a false religion because its claims are false. It claims to be the only true church on the face of the earth...yet its doctrine is riddled with falsehoods.
Some time ago I compiled some of the false testable claims found in Mormonism... here is a small portion of that effort.
Testable false claims found in Mormonism:
1.) If there was not a universal flood 4000 plus years ago, Mormonism is a fraud.
2.) If there was death of any kind, animal or vegetable, prior to The Fall, 5700 plus years ago, Mormonism is a fraud (check your local fossil record).
3.) If any human being on earth today descended from any human, or humanoid, other than two people who lived in Missouri 5700 years ago, then Mormonism is a fraud.
4.) If there were ANY humans living on earth prior to Adam and Eve 5700 years ago, Mormonism is a fraud.
5.) If the canonized Book of Abraham is not what Joseph claimed it to be (a "translation" of those particular scrolls), then Mormonism is a fraud.
6.) If the Book of Moses is not what JS claimed it to be (a restoration of Moses' original book of Genesis), then Mormonism is a fraud.
7.) If "spirit" is not "matter", then Mormonism is a fraud (that is, we ought to be able to detect the "matter" of "spirit", shouldn't we? Why is it totally invisible and undetectable, that is, IMMATERIAL?)
8.) If the Native Americans are not who "Jesus Christ" in the D&C said they were, namely, "Jews", then Mormonism is a fraud.
9.) If our sun is not drawing its light from a star called Kolob, then Mormonism is a fraud (wording from the facsimile may allow apologist spin job on this one - course, "wording’s never had much of an impact on whether a spin job comes up or not).
10.) If those who currently have themselves sustained as "seers" cannot actually perform the function of a seer by, say, translating unknown languages while looking through a seer stone, as outlined in the BOM and other places, Mormonism is a fraud. (Why haven't they translated the "papyrus scrolls of Joseph" yet?).
11.) If "A" and "not A" can not both be true, then Mormonism is a fraud, since in so many cases Mormonism requires us to believe just that, i.e., "The Lord won't let the prophet lead us astray"/"I don't know that we teach that"..."The Negroes weren't valiant in the pre-existence"..."birth control is an impure and unholy practice"..."plural marriage is necessary to exaltation"...and a million more reversals of previously taught doctrines by sitting church presidents. If the Lord won't let the prophets lead the church astray, how is it that in less than two centuries, the Godhead had been reconfigured by them so often? The Lectures on Faith were even CANONIZED for almost one hundred years! Can you imagine? The Godhead was the trinity for awhile, then it had two people in it, Adam's in there for awhile, JS thinks Jehovah is God the Father in section 109, or at least thinks it's okay to pray to Jesus which now it's not, the Godhead actually has three, James E. Talmage invents "divine investiture"....it's nuts. In which one of those evolutionary stages was the Lord not allowing the prophet to lead us astray? When we worshipped Jehovah? Or Adam, in the endowment ceremony? Or does it not matter who we worship? If not, then what's that commandment doing there in the Ten Commandments? And if it IS the case then that the Lord WILL let the prophets lead the church astray, then that torpedoes the whole thing anyway (as if all the contradictions don't anyway).The funny thing is, you don't even need to go searching around for steel and barley and stuff. You don't even need to go outside Mormonism itself to see that it can't possibly be what it claims to be. You can pretty much establish there is no way just on www.lds.org itself.
12. If the Earth is NOT 6,000 years old (see D&C 77) Mormonism is a fraud
13. If there were not Steal, Horses, Elephants, Wheat, Barley, Wheeled vehicles Figs, Grapes, etc in the Americas during the timeline of the Book of Mormon. Mormonism is a fraud
14. If the island inhabitants of the Pacific are not descended from the population of the Americas and of Hebrew blood, Mormonism is a fraud
15. If Joseph Smith’s claim to have translated Egyptian Papyri is proven a false translation, Mormonism is a fraud
16. If Joseph Smith translated the Kinderhook plates, which have been proved to be a modern day hoax, Mormonism is a fraud.
17. If Jews from the time of Moses until at least 600 B.C. were not proto-Christians, Mormonism is a fraud
17. If Jews from the time of Moses until at least 600 B.C. were not proto-Christians, Mormonism is a fraud
18. If Ancient Jews didn’t believe in the Devil/Satan, Mormonism is a fraud
19. If Ancient Jews didn’t believe in an afterlife, Mormonism is a fraud
20. If there wasn’t an original, pristine Christian church started by Jesus Himself which fell into apostasy, Mormonism is a fraud
21. If Joseph Smith used the same method of translation for the BoM that he used to defraud unsuspecting farmers of their hard-earned money with his claim to find treasure, Mormonism is a fraud
22. If the JST of the Bible is found to be totally unsupportable as a translation of any original biblical manuscripts, Mormonism is a fraud
23. If the substantive narration of the BofM - King Benjamin's discussion involving Jesus bleeding from every pore - debunked as a fabrication when Bible scholars learned that the Book of Luke account of Jesus sweating blood was a fabrication inserted by proto-orthodox believers (precursor to Catholic Church) - see research by Bart Ehrman. The plates of brass insertion is also debunked via the 1769 KJV errors. The Nephite sermon on the mount text is also a demonstrated fabrication because of the Lord's Prayer that Bible scholars have found to be partly fabricated during the Middle Ages - see any Bible, like a NIV version or annotated NKJV for a discussion., Mormonism is a fraud
24. If the characters Joseph Smith claimed were on the golden plates bear no resemblance to any ancient writing forms, and particularly no form of Hebrew or Egyptian, Mormonism is a fraud.
25. If the Book of Mormon contains anomalies of history, anachronism, geography, archaeology, etc., and obvious plagiarisms from the Bible and other works, Mormonism is a fraud
26. If changes were made to the original so-called Book of Mormon translation after Moroni declared the translation correct and took back the Golden Plates, Mormonism is a fraud
27. If Joseph Smith did not see God and Jesus Christ in 1820, then Mormonism is a fraud.
26. If changes were made to the original so-called Book of Mormon translation after Moroni declared the translation correct and took back the Golden Plates, Mormonism is a fraud
27. If Joseph Smith did not see God and Jesus Christ in 1820, then Mormonism is a fraud.
28. If Joseph Smith was not persecuted for having claimed to see God and Jesus Christ, then Mormonism is a fraud.
29. If Joseph Smith never told anyone about the "First Vision," then Mormonism is a fraud.
30. If John the Baptist never conferred the Aaronic Priesthood on the heads of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, then Mormonism is a fraud.
31. If Peter, James and John never ordained Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery with the Melchizedek Priesthood, then Mormonism is a fraud.
32. If Joseph Smith attempted to join any religion after being directly told to join none by Jesus Christ, then Mormonism is a fraud.
33. If after 1820. Joseph Smith ever changed his concept of deity from a traditional Trinity belief to a belief of distinct persons of flesh and bone, then Mormonism is a fraud.
34. If there is no steel swords, cows, horses, elephants, etc in ancient America, the Mormonism is a fraud.
35. If the Jews before 400 BC were unfamiliar with Greek names, then Mormonism is a fraud.
36. If God didn't want Joseph Smith to have sex with teenage girls, then Mormonism is a fraud.
37. If Elijah and Elias are the same person, then Mormonism is a fraud.
38. If sacred Mormon temple tokens, oaths and penalties are of Masonic origin, then Mormonism is a fraud.
39. If the living apostles haven't personally visited with Jesus Christ, then Mormonism is a fraud.
40. If a modern day prophet states that no one can see the future, then Mormonism is a fraud.
41. If a modern day prophet does not boldly tell the world that he is a living prophet when asked, but states that "the people sustain him as such", then Mormonism is a fraud.
42. If the only and best example of modern revelation is the decision to build a conference center and build more Temples, then Mormonism is a fraud.
43. If the church requires mandatory belief, Mormonism is a fraud
43. If the church requires mandatory belief, Mormonism is a fraud
44. If the church commands mandatory feelings, Mormonism is a fraud.
45. If it claims god is omnipotent and yet must follow some higher law, Mormonism is a fraud.
46. If the church can’t tell the truth regarding its own history, then Mormonism is a hypocritical organization and a fraud.
47. If the Mormon Church is not the restoration of the primitive church (either messianic Judaism or pure Paulism) then Mormonism is a fraud.
And on and on and on...
And cannot be what it claims to be or TRUE
47. If the Mormon Church is not the restoration of the primitive church (either messianic Judaism or pure Paulism) then Mormonism is a fraud.
And on and on and on...
And cannot be what it claims to be or TRUE
Tuesday, June 03, 2008
Is the Book of Mormon Modern or Ancient
If the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be…a translation of ancient golden plates holding the religious history of the forefathers of the American Indians… then it’s version of Christ’s sermons, found in 3 Nephi , should be the most pure, direct copies of Christ’s sermons in existence. For it would not have gone through all the alterations and human errors that were inherent in the reproduction process that produced our current Bible. In other words the Book of Mormon was not exposed to the errors of men and had the added advantage of coming to man directly through the gift and power of God Himself or so Mormon's claim.
Because of the pure process that gave us the Book of Mormon, one would not expect to find any of the mistakes found in our current Bible’s rendering of Christ’s sermon….because the Book of Mormon was not dependant on the same process that gave us the Bible …right?
Prior to the printing of the Book of Mormon, mankind relied on ancient Greek manuscripts from the second century, translated, transcribed, added to, deleted from through 1000’s of human hands and 1000’s of years to give us the words of Christ. A comparison of the earliest copies of these Greek manuscripts to copies that followed, has shown that there were hundreds of changes, errors and additions from those early manuscripts. Because each of these changes occurred after the second century AD and after the events Mormon’s claim took place in America…one would NOT expect to find the same mistakes, changes and additions found in the Bible... in the Book of Mormon’s versions of His sermons.
But does this claim stand up to scrutiny?
Is the Book of Mormon an actual translation of the abridged written words of an ancient American prophet named Mormon or the product of a talented but flawed mind? Did Mormon abridge plates that he had inherited giving a purer version of Jesus Christ’s sermon or did Joseph Smith merely plagiarize and then change a few words around to produce his version of Christ’s sermon in order to give it the appearance of a translation?
A close examination of the various versions of the Lord’s Prayer as found in Matthew 6 shows some surprising revelations.
We are all familiar with the widely used King James Version (KJV) of the Lord’s Prayer and the one found in the Book of Mormon.
Our current KJV - Matthew 6:9-13
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.
And 3 Nephi 13:9-13
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.
It’s interesting to note that these two versions differ in several key areas. The Book of Mormon fails to include 2 sentences found in the common KJV of the Lord’s Prayer.
01. Thy kingdom come.
02. Give us this day our daily bread.
Are missing...
So are we to conclude that Christ did not say these words to the Nephites…or had men merely added these words in the many years since Christ had supposedly uttered these words to the masses in Galilee and the Book of Mormon represents a more pure form of Christ’s sermon?
But wait…there is more…our current Lord’s Prayer found in today’s KJV…is NOT the same as the original 1611 A.D. first edition copy of the KJV.
The Lord’s Prayer as it was originally printed in the 1611 A.D. KJV
“Our father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen. “
Note that in the original KJV Both of the sentences left out of the Book of Mormon version were included in the KJV…but the last sentence …” For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen” is NOT found in the original first edition 1611 A.D. KJV.
It doesn’t take a Biblical scholar to see that this last line was added…in fact it started to show up in the versions of the KJV of the Bible in the 1700's and it is NOT present in ANY of the original Greek manuscripts.
A simple comparison of the 1611 AD KJV Bible and latter versions show that this line was added by “man” to the JKV of the Lord’s Prayer in the early 1700’s
But wait, there is still more…
An exact translation of the Lord’s Prayer from our earliest Original Greek Manuscripts into English… reads…
" Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one'
Note how both sentences removed from the Book of Mormon ARE found in translations from our earliest Greek Manuscripts…yet the Book of Mormon DOES include the sentence that Biblical scholar's have shown was added by man to the KJV in the 1600’s
So is the Book of Mormon what it claims to be?
If it IS a translation of ancient scripture…why does it include man-made additions from the 1700’s?
If it is a more pure rendering of Christ’s sermon, why doesn’t it include the same words given in our earliest Greek formats?
If during the translation process, Joseph took a short cut when he saw Christ familiar sermon being given again to the Nephites,(as mormon apologists claim) why did he remove those 2 sentences from the original Greek if he was trying to give a more pure form of Christ’s sermon and then leave in the man-made parts?
Because of the pure process that gave us the Book of Mormon, one would not expect to find any of the mistakes found in our current Bible’s rendering of Christ’s sermon….because the Book of Mormon was not dependant on the same process that gave us the Bible …right?
Prior to the printing of the Book of Mormon, mankind relied on ancient Greek manuscripts from the second century, translated, transcribed, added to, deleted from through 1000’s of human hands and 1000’s of years to give us the words of Christ. A comparison of the earliest copies of these Greek manuscripts to copies that followed, has shown that there were hundreds of changes, errors and additions from those early manuscripts. Because each of these changes occurred after the second century AD and after the events Mormon’s claim took place in America…one would NOT expect to find the same mistakes, changes and additions found in the Bible... in the Book of Mormon’s versions of His sermons.
But does this claim stand up to scrutiny?
Is the Book of Mormon an actual translation of the abridged written words of an ancient American prophet named Mormon or the product of a talented but flawed mind? Did Mormon abridge plates that he had inherited giving a purer version of Jesus Christ’s sermon or did Joseph Smith merely plagiarize and then change a few words around to produce his version of Christ’s sermon in order to give it the appearance of a translation?
A close examination of the various versions of the Lord’s Prayer as found in Matthew 6 shows some surprising revelations.
We are all familiar with the widely used King James Version (KJV) of the Lord’s Prayer and the one found in the Book of Mormon.
Our current KJV - Matthew 6:9-13
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.
And 3 Nephi 13:9-13
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.
It’s interesting to note that these two versions differ in several key areas. The Book of Mormon fails to include 2 sentences found in the common KJV of the Lord’s Prayer.
01. Thy kingdom come.
02. Give us this day our daily bread.
Are missing...
So are we to conclude that Christ did not say these words to the Nephites…or had men merely added these words in the many years since Christ had supposedly uttered these words to the masses in Galilee and the Book of Mormon represents a more pure form of Christ’s sermon?
But wait…there is more…our current Lord’s Prayer found in today’s KJV…is NOT the same as the original 1611 A.D. first edition copy of the KJV.
The Lord’s Prayer as it was originally printed in the 1611 A.D. KJV
“Our father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen. “
Note that in the original KJV Both of the sentences left out of the Book of Mormon version were included in the KJV…but the last sentence …” For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen” is NOT found in the original first edition 1611 A.D. KJV.
It doesn’t take a Biblical scholar to see that this last line was added…in fact it started to show up in the versions of the KJV of the Bible in the 1700's and it is NOT present in ANY of the original Greek manuscripts.
A simple comparison of the 1611 AD KJV Bible and latter versions show that this line was added by “man” to the JKV of the Lord’s Prayer in the early 1700’s
But wait, there is still more…
An exact translation of the Lord’s Prayer from our earliest Original Greek Manuscripts into English… reads…
" Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one'
Note how both sentences removed from the Book of Mormon ARE found in translations from our earliest Greek Manuscripts…yet the Book of Mormon DOES include the sentence that Biblical scholar's have shown was added by man to the KJV in the 1600’s
So is the Book of Mormon what it claims to be?
If it IS a translation of ancient scripture…why does it include man-made additions from the 1700’s?
If it is a more pure rendering of Christ’s sermon, why doesn’t it include the same words given in our earliest Greek formats?
If during the translation process, Joseph took a short cut when he saw Christ familiar sermon being given again to the Nephites,(as mormon apologists claim) why did he remove those 2 sentences from the original Greek if he was trying to give a more pure form of Christ’s sermon and then leave in the man-made parts?
Tuesday, May 20, 2008
The Day I told the Stake President to Kiss my A$$
Several years ago I received a phone call from the stake executive secretary in the area in which I live. I had been excommunicated maybe 2 years earlier and the new stake president wanted to have me come into his office for an update on where I currently stood with respect to the church. At first I told the Ex Sec that I had no desire to meet the new SP and hung up the phone. But upon further reflection I thought ,what the hell, so I called the Ex Sec back apologized for my curtness and set up an appointment to meet with the SP in his church office (to me his office held no special power or meaning other than a convenient place to meet) I felt he needed to KNOW exactly where I stood with respect to his church.
At the appointed time I arrived in my shorts , tee shirt and flip flops for our meeting. He greeted me warmly (he was a good guy in his pre-SP life). He offered to give an opening prayer to which I responded with “whatever floats your boat…but I won’t be participating”. After his prayer, he started to express his great love and respect for me and asked what my current views of the church were today.
I then went into a 30+ minute discourse of how I no longer viewed the church as being anything other than a man made institution with only imaginary make believe super human powers that he affectionately referrers to as priesthood powers. That it’s foundational scripture, The Book of Mormon, was nothing more than a fictional fairytale. That its so called prophets were merely men and it claims of holding a monopoly on truth was a false claim.
He was somewhat surprised that I had fallen into such a state of complete apostasy and questioned my statement on Mormon priesthood being anything other than what it claims to be. Bad move on his part.
I sat forward in my chair, looked him in the eye, raised my arm to the square and said. “John (not his real name) I am so sure that your so-called Mormon priesthood is nothing more than phony Mormon magical non-sense that I want you right here and now to raise your arm to the square like this and command me with all the super human mormon priesthood you can muster and command me in the name of Jesus Christ to become deaf and dumb just like the fictional Alma did to the fictional Korihor in your Book of Mormon.
As he sat there completely dumb founded I said... "Come on Do it”, then raising my voice ever so slightly I repeated. “Do it!”.
He just sat there looking like a deer caught in the headlights of an oncoming semi-tractor-trailer with his mouth wide open. He was obviosly not used to having anyone question his authority.
I then gave him my "testimony" that Mormonism was a fraud, that he was a smart man and could work his way out of it as well if he really wanted to know the truth. I told him that each and every time he bore testimony stating emphatically that he KNEW the church was true he was lying…he admitted that he believed rather than KNEW…but that it was a tradition in the church to express” knowledge” rather than belief and saw nothing wrong with continuing to do so. I reiterated my statement that it was dishonest to claim as knowledge something he had just told me he did not in fact know. He seemed unfazed with my argument.
We parted with a handshake and the knowledge that he was a product of Mormonism and would remain so…and that he no longer had ANY power or authority over me. Some days are better than others…and on this day it was good to be a Mormon apostate.
Oh one more thing...all future posts to this blog may be posted in brail and grunts...
LOL...
Just kidding :-)
One more thought...knowing that there are many TBM's who visit my blog...PPPPLLLLEEEAAASSSEEEE....I don't want to hear all the crap on what an asshole I was that day (granted I was very direct) but that day was all about taking back my power from the Mormon church and letting them know that no longer could they ever feel that they had any power or authority over me.
I set boundaries with the church letting them know that I would no longer be at their beck and call...that in the future, if this SP wanted to meet with me He would have to call me himself rather than have his lacky call and it would be at a location of my choice and the subject of all future meetings would be of my choosing. I never head from him since.
At the appointed time I arrived in my shorts , tee shirt and flip flops for our meeting. He greeted me warmly (he was a good guy in his pre-SP life). He offered to give an opening prayer to which I responded with “whatever floats your boat…but I won’t be participating”. After his prayer, he started to express his great love and respect for me and asked what my current views of the church were today.
I then went into a 30+ minute discourse of how I no longer viewed the church as being anything other than a man made institution with only imaginary make believe super human powers that he affectionately referrers to as priesthood powers. That it’s foundational scripture, The Book of Mormon, was nothing more than a fictional fairytale. That its so called prophets were merely men and it claims of holding a monopoly on truth was a false claim.
He was somewhat surprised that I had fallen into such a state of complete apostasy and questioned my statement on Mormon priesthood being anything other than what it claims to be. Bad move on his part.
I sat forward in my chair, looked him in the eye, raised my arm to the square and said. “John (not his real name) I am so sure that your so-called Mormon priesthood is nothing more than phony Mormon magical non-sense that I want you right here and now to raise your arm to the square like this and command me with all the super human mormon priesthood you can muster and command me in the name of Jesus Christ to become deaf and dumb just like the fictional Alma did to the fictional Korihor in your Book of Mormon.
As he sat there completely dumb founded I said... "Come on Do it”, then raising my voice ever so slightly I repeated. “Do it!”.
He just sat there looking like a deer caught in the headlights of an oncoming semi-tractor-trailer with his mouth wide open. He was obviosly not used to having anyone question his authority.
I then gave him my "testimony" that Mormonism was a fraud, that he was a smart man and could work his way out of it as well if he really wanted to know the truth. I told him that each and every time he bore testimony stating emphatically that he KNEW the church was true he was lying…he admitted that he believed rather than KNEW…but that it was a tradition in the church to express” knowledge” rather than belief and saw nothing wrong with continuing to do so. I reiterated my statement that it was dishonest to claim as knowledge something he had just told me he did not in fact know. He seemed unfazed with my argument.
We parted with a handshake and the knowledge that he was a product of Mormonism and would remain so…and that he no longer had ANY power or authority over me. Some days are better than others…and on this day it was good to be a Mormon apostate.
Oh one more thing...all future posts to this blog may be posted in brail and grunts...
LOL...
Just kidding :-)
One more thought...knowing that there are many TBM's who visit my blog...PPPPLLLLEEEAAASSSEEEE....I don't want to hear all the crap on what an asshole I was that day (granted I was very direct) but that day was all about taking back my power from the Mormon church and letting them know that no longer could they ever feel that they had any power or authority over me.
I set boundaries with the church letting them know that I would no longer be at their beck and call...that in the future, if this SP wanted to meet with me He would have to call me himself rather than have his lacky call and it would be at a location of my choice and the subject of all future meetings would be of my choosing. I never head from him since.
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